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High Court Judge blames economic crisis on "planning free-for-all"


SPN

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Feb 2, 2004
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16,895
Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh has said “the banking crisis which almost broke the nation” might not have happened had there not been a “planning free-for-all” during the boom years.

“When the history of the past 20 years or so comes to be written, I think we will come to admire those who raised reasonable arguments against ill-advised development."

High Court judge blames boom time


This is one of the major factors in the crisis that does not get nearly enough attention.

An acre of farmland was an asset worth €10,000.

Get it rezoned by the local Council and suddenly you had an asset worth (conservatively) €250,000.

That's is €240,000 of "wealth" created out of thin air by the Council.

Simply by taking that rezoning decision to the bank you could get them to hand over money using the rezoning as collateral.

The banks accepted the Councillors' decision at face value, meanwhile the Councillors had probably been persuaded to rezone the land on the basis that the banks wouldn't be supporting the rezoning unless it was feasible.

Everyone had a get-out clause; everyone had an upside; nobody looked too critically at the situation.

Because of this we ended up with enough land zoned for housing to accommodate a population of 9 million, and enough land zoned for retail to meet the needs of a population of 12 million.

I remember doing a calculation on the values of the land that the various Councils were de-zoning back to agriculture in the aftermath of the bubble, and when the new planning regulations kicked into force.

The figure I came up with, using €250k as the average value of zoned land and €10k as the average value of the dezoned land, was somewhere in the region of €70 Billion.

Pretty close to the €64 Billion the Banks needed to fix them, and hardly a coincidence.
 


Reck-less

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Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Messages
608
Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh has said “the banking crisis which almost broke the nation” might not have happened had there not been a “planning free-for-all” during the boom years.

“When the history of the past 20 years or so comes to be written, I think we will come to admire those who raised reasonable arguments against ill-advised development."

High Court judge blames boom time


This is one of the major factors in the crisis that does not get nearly enough attention.

An acre of farmland was an asset worth €10,000.

Get it rezoned by the local Council and suddenly you had an asset worth (conservatively) €250,000.

That's is €240,000 of "wealth" created out of thin air by the Council.

Simply by taking that rezoning decision to the bank you could get them to hand over money using the rezoning as collateral.

The banks accepted the Councillors' decision at face value, meanwhile the Councillors had probably been persuaded to rezone the land on the basis that the banks wouldn't be supporting the rezoning unless it was feasible.

Everyone had a get-out clause; everyone had an upside; nobody looked too critically at the situation.

Because of this we ended up with enough land zoned for housing to accommodate a population of 9 million, and enough land zoned for retail to meet the needs of a population of 12 million.

I remember doing a calculation on the values of the land that the various Councils were de-zoning back to agriculture in the aftermath of the bubble, and when the new planning regulations kicked into force.

The figure I came up with, using €250k as the average value of zoned land and €10k as the average value of the dezoned land, was somewhere in the region of €70 Billion.

Pretty close to the €64 Billion the Banks needed to fix them, and hardly a coincidence.
I'd love to know which Councillors Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh holds personally responsible for our "economic crisis", and of which political persuasion these Councillors were.
 

spidermom

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9,189
OR....like a government quango spending 30 million plus (???)on a new children hospital in a location that was never likely to achieve planning...with the blessing of the council...the Minister and the government....


Thank the lord...(at times) for the planning process and Bord Pleanala!!
 

Own Arris

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Feb 14, 2009
Messages
702
I'd love to know which Councillors Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh holds personally responsible for our "economic crisis", and of which political persuasion these Councillors were.
The FF and FG control over the rezoning of land in the last 30 years in councils led directly to corruption, Phil Hogans stymieing of investigations into such corruption demonstrates how far it has spread. It is my opinion that he played a major part in preventing the truth about him and others of a gombean persuasion from being found out.
 

Zerubbabel

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Mar 3, 2013
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1,963
The Judge has a point. Also I've witnessed planning officials being put under very severe political pressure by Councillors and TD's to pass planning applications, regardless of the consequences. Combine it all with the ridiculous "self certification by contractors architect" approach to building regulations in Ireland (an approach the Construction Industry Federation lobbied very hard to achieve and maintain), and you have a recipe for disaster.
 
Last edited:

SPN

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16,895
I'd love to know which Councillors Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh holds personally responsible for our "economic crisis", and of which political persuasion these Councillors were.
FF, FG and Amateur-FF primarily. Loads of Independents and even Sinn Féin were involved too. Sinn Féin in Monaghan supported the rezoning of enough land to house the population of Dublin.




The FF and FG control over the rezoning of land in the last 30 years in councils led directly to corruption, Phil Hogans stymieing of investigations into such corruption demonstrates how far it has spread. It is my opinion that he played a major part in preventing the truth about him and others of a gombean persuasion from being found out.
FF, FG and Amateur-FF. were all involved. Some authorities where Amateur-FF are part of the pact are among the worst offenders.


Hogan's action on the independent enquiries is as much a political thing as an administrative thing. Too many officials would have their arses nailed to the wall if that were to go through, and the officials in The Custom House look after their own.
 

Picasso Republic

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In a country the size of Ireland (small population) things such as local planning which can create millionaires overnight should not be open to political or any other pressure - someone needs to look at a new way to review planning applications in which the personalities reviewing applications cannot be identified and every provisional decision should go through a seconsary audit prior to full notification of the decision.

I know many farmers and those wanting isolated country houses would disagree with my views, but large urban and suburban developments aside, the approval of ribbon development and random bungalows dotted all over the country (often spoiling very scenic locations) is a blight Ireland will now have to live with.
 
D

Dylan2010

clearily it wasnt free enough or there would be no perceived value in getting the permission. Between the continual marginal application process and the crazy restrictions in developing brownfield sites, the planners created artifical bottlenecks and shortages where there wasnt one.

The simple approach would have been to layout where people could build on a rolling 30 year basis say based on where infrastructure would be built and let people get on with it. There would then be little value based on paper.
 

Volatire

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I thought the economic crisis was caused by the NIMBYs?
 

drjimryan2

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Nov 16, 2009
Messages
1,722
Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh has said “the banking crisis which almost broke the nation” might not have happened had there not been a “planning free-for-all” during the boom years.

“When the history of the past 20 years or so comes to be written, I think we will come to admire those who raised reasonable arguments against ill-advised development."

High Court judge blames boom time


This is one of the major factors in the crisis that does not get nearly enough attention.

An acre of farmland was an asset worth €10,000.

Get it rezoned by the local Council and suddenly you had an asset worth (conservatively) €250,000.

That's is €240,000 of "wealth" created out of thin air by the Council.

Simply by taking that rezoning decision to the bank you could get them to hand over money using the rezoning as collateral.

The banks accepted the Councillors' decision at face value, meanwhile the Councillors had probably been persuaded to rezone the land on the basis that the banks wouldn't be supporting the rezoning unless it was feasible.

Everyone had a get-out clause; everyone had an upside; nobody looked too critically at the situation.

Because of this we ended up with enough land zoned for housing to accommodate a population of 9 million, and enough land zoned for retail to meet the needs of a population of 12 million.

I remember doing a calculation on the values of the land that the various Councils were de-zoning back to agriculture in the aftermath of the bubble, and when the new planning regulations kicked into force.

The figure I came up with, using €250k as the average value of zoned land and €10k as the average value of the dezoned land, was somewhere in the region of €70 Billion.

Pretty close to the €64 Billion the Banks needed to fix them, and hardly a coincidence.
land 10k check, ffhq 500 check, attendance at cdc race night 500 check, donation to cllr 500 check......thats 11.5 k to make 250k...

nice work if you can get it......indeed
 

SPN

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Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,895
land 10k check, ffhq 500 check, attendance at cdc race night 500 check, donation to cllr 500 check......thats 11.5 k to make 250k...

nice work if you can get it......indeed
Don't forget FG and Amateur-FF as well.

We'll make a big mistake if we don't hold all of them to account.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Oct 2, 2011
Messages
14,180
Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh has said “the banking crisis which almost broke the nation” might not have happened had there not been a “planning free-for-all” during the boom years.

“When the history of the past 20 years or so comes to be written, I think we will come to admire those who raised reasonable arguments against ill-advised development."

High Court judge blames boom time


This is one of the major factors in the crisis that does not get nearly enough attention.

An acre of farmland was an asset worth €10,000.

Get it rezoned by the local Council and suddenly you had an asset worth (conservatively) €250,000.

That's is €240,000 of "wealth" created out of thin air by the Council.

Simply by taking that rezoning decision to the bank you could get them to hand over money using the rezoning as collateral.

The banks accepted the Councillors' decision at face value, meanwhile the Councillors had probably been persuaded to rezone the land on the basis that the banks wouldn't be supporting the rezoning unless it was feasible.

Everyone had a get-out clause; everyone had an upside; nobody looked too critically at the situation.

Because of this we ended up with enough land zoned for housing to accommodate a population of 9 million, and enough land zoned for retail to meet the needs of a population of 12 million.

I remember doing a calculation on the values of the land that the various Councils were de-zoning back to agriculture in the aftermath of the bubble, and when the new planning regulations kicked into force.

The figure I came up with, using €250k as the average value of zoned land and €10k as the average value of the dezoned land, was somewhere in the region of €70 Billion.

Pretty close to the €64 Billion the Banks needed to fix them, and hardly a coincidence.
Kind of ironic that I had a similar conversation last night, with my neighbour regarding Sweden and the crash in the 90's.

Sweden sterilised 60,000 of its indigenous Sami minority from the 30's to the 70's. Then was forced to import foreign labour from the former Yugoslavia in the 70's as they had not got the numbers, followed by bringing in as many asylum seekers it could find from the Middle East and other war zones after the crash in the early 90's, which was almost the exact same as the Irish crash.

When the Swedish economy crashed in the early 90's it was left with a housing over supply that has only finished being used up in the kommune I live in, after doubling its population with mostly asylum seekers. There are still several kommunes I know of in Sweden that have entire housing developments lying empty that were build in the mad building boom from the end of the 80's until the crash in the early 90's.

In the southern half of Sweden most of the excess housing has been taken up by non-EU immigrants. That process took 20 years to fill them all.

In the mid 80's there was a call to increase the population of Sweden to 20 million at least, so as to develop the country more. There was only 7 million in the country at that point. There is now 9 million and growing.

In Ireland I seem to remember some developer or someone similar on Irish news about 10 years ago stating that as Ireland grows it will have to accomodate 15 million people, to cheers form his audience. It was the news covering some sort of conference if I can remember correctly. The only way that could be achieved would be to create conditions that Irish abroad moved back to Ireland or to literally fill the country with people from outside the EU.

Regarding the amount of money that the banks needed to be bailed out with nearly matching the money lent to developers in Ireland, that was mentioned in a documentary in Sweden as the money from the bail outs for years after the bail outs of the early 90's, matched that needed to bail out the banks who had loaned to developers and kommunes developing.

The similarities between the Sweden crash of the early 90's which made Swedish bankers rich beyond there wildest dreams and the Irish economic crisis today is incredible. It really is hard to put it down to coincidence.
 

Expose the lot of them

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OR....like a government quango spending 30 million plus (???)on a new children hospital in a location that was never likely to achieve planning...with the blessing of the council...the Minister and the government....


Thank the lord...(at times) for the planning process and Bord Pleanala!!
DCC with Tierney as City Manager, another 30 million to add to the 90 million (incinerator), 103 million (uncollected developer levies), 6.7 milliion (Longfields Hotel, Fitzwilliam Street), final figure for bin debacle unknown.

The elected representatives must carry substantial blame for these decisions but the so-called executive are equally if not more responsible and totally unaccountable, we have the ability to remove the elected representatives but have no control over the likes of Tierney.
 

Aindriu

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Planning free for all is dead right! What very little planning regulations and controls that do exist here were, for the most part, just blatantly ignored. The complex of jerry built flats 'built' by the ex Ra dude are a classic example.
 

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
Messages
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Planning free for all is dead right! What very little planning regulations and controls that do exist here were, for the most part, just blatantly ignored. The complex of jerry built flats 'built' by the ex Ra dude are a classic example.
The Greens 2010 Planning Act went very far in addressing planning regulations and controls. Mind you, FG were very vocal in promising to address the "shackles" of it in government. And here we will go again.
 

borntorum

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I'd love to know which Councillors Mr Justice Colm MacEochaidh holds personally responsible for our "economic crisis", and of which political persuasion these Councillors were.
It always seemed a bit odd to me that, given his long standing concerns about the planning system, MacEochaidh chose to join FG
 

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