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High profile unionist claims "SF ahead of SDLP" on shared future


factual

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Interesting take 23 minutes in to this audioboo:

Audioboo / Panel asking What is a Shared Future at DUP conference

The high profile unionist claims that SF is ahead of the SDLP on a shared future.

This is something that is very interesting - that unionists see SF as ahead of the SDLP on a shared future - perhaps a sign that SF's outreach work is starting to work much better than the sceptics on this forum have given credit for.
 


physicist

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Was it Ian Og? Sure isn't he just tired of fighting now?

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWl6T0-sGeY[/video]
 

FitzjamesHorse

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Look at it this way Factual.
Why would DUP be bigging up Sinn Féin? Why would they prefer to deal with SF than SDLP?
Of course DUP might be totally genuine in their outreach and SF are better "partners". Or they might just think "SF" is a softer touch.
Either might be correct. But a good rule of thumb........is not to accept what any partisan....including myself says.....but rather think "Who is this person.....Why is this person saying this???".
Certainly dont take it face value.
Again nobody should take the Lucid Talk poll in Bel Tele all that seriously......but given that Robinson is trying to convince his people that 7% in Norn Iron favour a United Ireland........again WHY would he say that?
In part he wants them to think that they should back "outreach" because DUP can offer concessions cos Union is "safe".
But consider the other side ......that 7% whether true or not is at a time when Sinn Féin are the prime nationalist party. Thats not a good performance on "SFs watch".

I am not for one moment suggesting that its true or untrue.
Just never take anything at face value.
DUP put this view into the public domain for a reason and will be delighted people believe it.
 

factual

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Look at it this way Factual.
Why would DUP be bigging up Sinn Féin? Why would they prefer to deal with SF than SDLP?
Of course DUP might be totally genuine in their outreach and SF are better "partners". Or they might just think "SF" is a softer touch.
Either might be correct. But a good rule of thumb........is not to accept what any partisan....including myself says.....but rather think "Who is this person.....Why is this person saying this???".
Certainly dont take it face value.
Again nobody should take the Lucid Talk poll in Bel Tele all that seriously......but given that Robinson is trying to convince his people that 7% in Norn Iron favour a United Ireland........again WHY would he say that?
In part he wants them to think that they should back "outreach" because DUP can offer concessions cos Union is "safe".
But consider the other side ......that 7% whether true or not is at a time when Sinn Féin are the prime nationalist party. Thats not a good performance on "SFs watch".

I am not for one moment suggesting that its true or untrue.
Just never take anything at face value.
DUP put this view into the public domain for a reason and will be delighted people believe it.
First off - simple explanations are often the most likely. And the simple explanation is that SF is a good party to do business with. Call it a roll-up sleeves attitude to work. Call it ability to cooperate and work with unionists. Either way it results in delivery. Compared to the stagnation, haituses, and suspensions that occurred under the SDLP's watch. Better government yields investment. And we have seen some major corporate investments over recent days.

Second off - the reaction of the DUP in which they thought SF better on a shared future is also quite likely because SF do take unionist outreach seriously. SF have a Unionist Engagement Charter which sets out a framework for this to take place:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/UnionistCharter.pdf

Others have poured scorn on this, but that is because it is is innovative and forward thinking, and it takes time for people to come on board.

Gerry Adams has stated that unionist engagement is the most important work that SF is doing north of the border.

Finally and perhaps most important of all, SF are better on a shared future than the SDLP because the SDLP are obsessed with their decline and they do not have the necessary confidence to push forward on the shared future agenda.

They think that to do so would be a sign of weakness. SF do not have this problem.



Finally do you know when the next Lucid Talk poll is out? I gather that one is imminent. Will be interesting to see if SDLP do any better in this one.
 

InsideImDancing

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Look at it this way Factual.
Why would DUP be bigging up Sinn Féin? Why would they prefer to deal with SF than SDLP?
Of course DUP might be totally genuine in their outreach and SF are better "partners". Or they might just think "SF" is a softer touch.
Either might be correct. But a good rule of thumb........is not to accept what any partisan....including myself says.....but rather think "Who is this person.....Why is this person saying this???".
Certainly dont take it face value.
Again nobody should take the Lucid Talk poll in Bel Tele all that seriously......but given that Robinson is trying to convince his people that 7% in Norn Iron favour a United Ireland........again WHY would he say that?
In part he wants them to think that they should back "outreach" because DUP can offer concessions cos Union is "safe".
But consider the other side ......that 7% whether true or not is at a time when Sinn Féin are the prime nationalist party. Thats not a good performance on "SFs watch".

I am not for one moment suggesting that its true or untrue.
Just never take anything at face value.
DUP put this view into the public domain for a reason and will be delighted people believe it.
The Poll was a scam, they knew a UI was not practical in the morning, hence the seven percent garbage, the guy who owns the company is UUP ffs. Most people realise that a UI is at least 20 years off, the percentage rose to 37 percent support for a UI in that time frame, which sounds slightly closer to the truth.

My poll, elections, shows 42% voting for two parties whose stated central aim is a UI, that's good enough for me, for now.

Think about this telephone poll, like, who has a land-line phone these days? A very particular demographic, rendering this poll pretty useless anyway.
 

Mickeymac

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The Poll was a scam, they knew a UI was not practical in the morning, hence the seven percent garbage, the guy who owns the company is UUP ffs. Most people realise that a UI is at least 20 years off, the percentage rose to 37 percent support for a UI in that time frame, which sounds slightly closer to the truth.

My poll, elections, shows 42% voting for two parties whose stated central aim is a UI, that's good enough for me, for now.

Think about this telephone poll, like, who has a land-line phone these days? A very particular demographic, rendering this poll pretty useless anyway.

Indeed IID, unionist polls are mere messages of encouragement to their electorate that a UI will never happen.

Elections, as you say are the only true poll, for my part, the Scottish upcoming vote will have a huge influence on the outcome of an early poll on Irish unity.
 

InsideImDancing

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On the op and SF and the SDLP, it's pretty obvious stuff, with power comes responsibility and the need for pragmatism. It's a lot easier to snipe from the side lines.

When in power you have to mature pretty quickly, starting petty fights with Unionists over the likes of parades will achieve nothing for SF.

SF are after votes in the south, if they have to bend a few principals for the optics in order to get them, then so be it, that's politics. More power in the south is worth it in my opinion, if they get something like 18pc in the south they'll become the biggest party on the island. As a United Irelander, I want the party that seeks a UI more than any other, to have the most power. SDLP can't do this because they only organise in a fraction of the country.
 

InsideImDancing

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Indeed IID, unionist polls are mere messages of encouragement to their electorate that a UI will never happen.

Elections, as you say are the only true poll, for my part, the Scottish upcoming vote will have a huge influence on the outcome of an early poll on Irish unity.
I don't think the Scots will vote yes tbh, it will be close but I think they'll vote no, either way it will have ramifications for the UK. I'm not to bothered about an early poll, better to wait to the economic crisis calms down first imo.
 

Mickeymac

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On the op and SF and the SDLP, it's pretty obvious stuff, with power comes responsibility and the need for pragmatism. It's a lot easier to snipe from the side lines.

When in power you have to mature pretty quickly, starting petty fights with Unionists over the likes of parades will achieve nothing for SF.

SF are after votes in the south, if they have to bend a few principals for the optics in order to get them, then so be it, that's politics. More power in the south is worth it in my opinion, if they get something like 18pc in the south they'll become the biggest party on the island. As a United Irelander, I want the party that seeks a UI more than any other, to have the most power. SDLP can't do this because they only organise in a fraction of the country.

Pragmatism is certainly the name of the game in these times, SF have certainly taken that on board unlike their partners in power-sharing.
 

Mickeymac

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I don't think the Scots will vote yes tbh, it will be close but I think they'll vote no, either way it will have ramifications for the UK. I'm not to bothered about an early poll, better to wait to the economic crisis calms down first imo.

If the Scot vote is close or a yes, I will bet my bottom dollar that a poll for Ireland will be demanded regardless of the economy there.


Btw, see your point, but I only offered my personal opinion.
 

Billy the Prod

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Finally and perhaps most important of all, SF are better on a shared future than the SDLP because the SDLP are obsessed with their decline and they do not have the necessary confidence to push forward on the shared future agenda.

They think that to do so would be a sign of weakness. SF do not have this problem.
"Shared future" means something entirely different to Unionists and SF. Unionists want to see Nationalists abandoning their long held national aspiration, accepting partition, and sharing the future with Unionists within Northern Ireland; whilst SF's definition means something entirely different, and I don't need to spell it out.

The SDLP were never strong on reunification. That's why Billy Leonard left them and joined SF. The political will is just not there, and I feel that this is because even though the SDLP are a Nationalist party, they are mostly composed of and representative of the Nationalist middle class, and the NMC are fully aware of the fact that they do very well socially, academically, and in terms of careers and professions within the Union of GB and NI, and whilst they shall continue to pay lip service to the ideal of a UI, it's just that ie. lip service.

SF became the biggest Nationalist party because after 30 years of struggle (wanton violence), many Nationalists (traditional SDLP voters) decided to jump ship and join the momentum SF-IRA had generated as a result of abandoning violence and changing strategy. SF looked increasingly like the party which could deliver, and now that the SDLP and the UUP have been sidelined by the former hard-liners, who have miraculously kept it together and been getting on with the work at hand, it's very unlikely that the SDLP and the UUP shall return to their former dominant positions any time soon.

Like them or loathe them, SF have the interests of the Nationalist people as a whole in mind and have not abandoned their aspiration, whilst the SDLP, stuck in a defeatist rut, are busy taking care of their own selfish, careerist interests, and are happy to do so whilst N.I remains part of the UK.
 
C

Castle Ray

First off - simple explanations are often the most likely. And the simple explanation is that SF is a good party to do business with. Call it a roll-up sleeves attitude to work. Call it ability to cooperate and work with unionists. Either way it results in delivery. Compared to the stagnation, haituses, and suspensions that occurred under the SDLP's watch. Better government yields investment. And we have seen some major corporate investments over recent days.

Second off - the reaction of the DUP in which they thought SF better on a shared future is also quite likely because SF do take unionist outreach seriously. SF have a Unionist Engagement Charter which sets out a framework for this to take place:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/UnionistCharter.pdf

Others have poured scorn on this, but that is because it is is innovative and forward thinking, and it takes time for people to come on board.

Gerry Adams has stated that unionist engagement is the most important work that SF is doing north of the border.

Finally and perhaps most important of all, SF are better on a shared future than the SDLP because the SDLP are obsessed with their decline and they do not have the necessary confidence to push forward on the shared future agenda.

They think that to do so would be a sign of weakness. SF do not have this problem.



Finally do you know when the next Lucid Talk poll is out? I gather that one is imminent. Will be interesting to see if SDLP do any better in this one.
In amongst your reasoned argument you mention the most alienating and divisive words in Irish and NI tribal politics that pours not only scorn but toxic stink over your intended message - "Gerry Adams".

There is nothing that such a pariah could do to assist what you hope for never mind unionist outreach. He is the embodiment of unionist disgust.
 

factual

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"Shared future" means something entirely different to Unionists and SF. Unionists want to see Nationalists abandoning their long held national aspiration, accepting partition, and sharing the future with Unionists within Northern Ireland; whilst SF's definition means something entirely different, and I don't need to spell it out.

The SDLP were never strong on reunification. That's why Billy Leonard left them and joined SF. The political will is just not there, and I feel that this is because even though the SDLP are a Nationalist party, they are mostly composed of and representative of the Nationalist middle class, and the NMC are fully aware of the fact that they do very well socially, academically, and in terms of careers and professions within the Union of GB and NI, and whilst they shall continue to pay lip service to the ideal of a UI, it's just that ie. lip service.

SF became the biggest Nationalist party because after 30 years of struggle (wanton violence), many Nationalists (traditional SDLP voters) decided to jump ship and join the momentum SF-IRA had generated as a result of abandoning violence and changing strategy. SF looked increasingly like the party which could deliver, and now that the SDLP and the UUP have been sidelined by the former hard-liners, who have miraculously kept it together and been getting on with the work at hand, it's very unlikely that the SDLP and the UUP shall return to their former dominant positions any time soon.

Like them or loathe them, SF have the interests of the Nationalist people as a whole in mind and have not abandoned their aspiration, whilst the SDLP, stuck in a defeatist rut, are busy taking care of their own selfish, careerist interests, and are happy to do so whilst N.I remains part of the UK.
Excellent articulate well-throught-through post. I agree 110%.
 
C

Castle Ray

Excellent articulate well-throught-through post. I agree 110%.
Maybe for the rest of it, but the first paragraph is nonsense. A "shared future" for SF is no different in nature just a different jurisdiction (and economically and socially worse off) than proposed by Unionists with a lot more scary ramifications for non-CNRs than non-PULs in the Unionist version.
 

Glenshane4

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SF became the biggest Nationalist party because after 30 years of struggle (wanton violence), many Nationalists (traditional SDLP voters) decided to jump ship and join the momentum SF-IRA had generated as a result of abandoning violence and changing strategy. SF looked increasingly like the party which could deliver,
I disagree. Many Catholics started voting for Sinn Fein in retaliation for Protestants voting for the DUP. The victory of Dr Paisley in the European election of 1979 was seen by many Catholics as a declaration of war by Prod Ulster on Catholic Ulster. Sinn Fein rose in response to that Prod threat.
 

Just Jack

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Incidentally who was the "high profile unionist"?
 

FitzjamesHorse

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First off - simple explanations are often the most likely. And the simple explanation is that SF is a good party to do business with. Call it a roll-up sleeves attitude to work. Call it ability to cooperate and work with unionists. Either way it results in delivery. Compared to the stagnation, haituses, and suspensions that occurred under the SDLP's watch. Better government yields investment. And we have seen some major corporate investments over recent days.

Second off - the reaction of the DUP in which they thought SF better on a shared future is also quite likely because SF do take unionist outreach seriously. SF have a Unionist Engagement Charter which sets out a framework for this to take place:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/UnionistCharter.pdf

Others have poured scorn on this, but that is because it is is innovative and forward thinking, and it takes time for people to come on board.

Gerry Adams has stated that unionist engagement is the most important work that SF is doing north of the border.

Finally and perhaps most important of all, SF are better on a shared future than the SDLP because the SDLP are obsessed with their decline and they do not have the necessary confidence to push forward on the shared future agenda.

They think that to do so would be a sign of weakness. SF do not have this problem.



Finally do you know when the next Lucid Talk poll is out? I gather that one is imminent. Will be interesting to see if SDLP do any better in this one.
No it wont....it will be interesting to see how SDLP do in next elections.
 

FitzjamesHorse

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The Poll was a scam, they knew a UI was not practical in the morning, hence the seven percent garbage, the guy who owns the company is UUP ffs. Most people realise that a UI is at least 20 years off, the percentage rose to 37 percent support for a UI in that time frame, which sounds slightly closer to the truth.

My poll, elections, shows 42% voting for two parties whose stated central aim is a UI, that's good enough for me, for now.

Think about this telephone poll, like, who has a land-line phone these days? A very particular demographic, rendering this poll pretty useless anyway.
I dont know who owns Lucid Talk but Gerry Lynch, their analyst is a former Alliance staffer....Alliance being far worse (in my humble view) than UUP.
Indeed the polling by telephone thing is a bit strange.
The full results are that 7% want a United Irenad and 93% think Lucid Talk is selling double-glazing.
 

InsideImDancing

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I dont know who owns Lucid Talk but Gerry Lynch, their analyst is a former Alliance staffer....Alliance being far worse (in my humble view) than UUP.
Indeed the polling by telephone thing is a bit strange.
The full results are that 7% want a United Irenad and 93% think Lucid Talk is selling double-glazing.
It's owned by a former UUP chair of south Belfast, as far as I know.
 

Mickeymac

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This thread is loaded with supposition and hypothetical views, nonsense IMO, bring on the poll.
 

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