Historical reluctance to celebrate today's Independence Day?

FloatingVoterTralee

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Today marks the 89th anniversary of the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and thus in effect our national Independence Day. Of course, the differing attitudes of our national parties towards this document probably accounts for most of the reluctance to celebrate this occasion, as is the fact that it was considered at the time an unsatisfactory British-imposed compromise. Still, almost a century later, and having used all the Treaty's provisions to assert ourselves in the international arena, surely it is time we embraced this date as a nation and celebrated it as Irish Independence Day?
 


kerdasi amaq

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24 April 1916. That is our country's Independence Day. Eff the Treaty, I'd repudiate it, in an instant, if we had the military force to keep the English on their blasted island.
 

reknaw

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Thanks to Floating Voter for pointing out something of which probably very few Irish people are even aware - namely that the transfer of sovereignty from Britain to the Free State happened on 6 December.:)

Of course, as kerdasi amaq mentions, there are different views on what ought to be our independence day and indeed whether or not we have ever achieved independence.;)

As it happens, today is also Independence Day in Finland. It is a public holiday and involves much celebration. It was on 6 December 1917 that the Senate (government) of the then autonomous grand-duchy declared national independence, after the Czar of Russia, who was also the Grand-Duke of Finland, had been given his P45.:lol:

Another historical feature that the two countries share is that they were assigned to their respective colonial masters by the same Pope, Adrian (Hadrianus) IV, the only Englishman ever to hold the job and, it seems, a right knob.:mad: He gave the Swedes the OK to launch a crusade to put Finland on the right path, which they did in 1155, and also gave the green light to the Normans to take over Ireland, 1171.

Juhlapyry pyyhkii yli Suomen - liikenteelle haittaa | Kotimaan uutiset | Iltalehti.fi

As you can see from the picture. it's a lovely blizzardy day, mild for this time of the year and with lots of lovely powdery snow.:cool:
 
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shutuplaura

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Meh, I'm not sure I'd have the energy for the annual 'is this really independance day?" threads on p.ie. We have March 17 anyway.
 

idle tim

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Independence day today:p,Dependence day tomorrow:mad:(if as is highly likely the Budget is passed).
 

cashinhand

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Thanks to Floating Voter for pointing out something of which probably very few Irish people are even aware - namely that the transfer of sovereignty from Britain to the Free State happened on 6 December.:)

Of course, as kerdasi amaq mentions, there are different views on what ought to be our independence day and indeed whether or not we have ever achieved independence.;)

As it happens, today is also Independence Day in Finland. It is a public holiday and involves much celebration. It was on 6 December 1917 that the Senate (government) of the then autonomous grand-duchy declared national independence, after the Czar of Russia, who was also the Grand-Duke of Finland, had been given his P45.:lol:

Another historical feature that the two countries share is that they were assigned to their respective colonial masters by the same Pope, Hadrian IV, the only Englishman ever to hold the job and, it seems, a right knob.:mad: He gave the Swedes the OK to launch a crusade to put Finland on the right path, which they did in 1155, and also gave the green light to the Normans to take over Ireland, 1171.

Juhlapyry pyyhkii yli Suomen - liikenteelle haittaa | Kotimaan uutiset | Iltalehti.fi

As you can see from the picture. it's a lovely blizzardy day, mild for this time of the year and with lots of lovely powdery snow.:cool:
Fascinating stuff. Nice to break out of parish-pump Lowry-Rae politics in time and place for a moment.
 

A view from England

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24 April 1916. That is our country's Independence Day. Eff the Treaty, I'd repudiate it, in an instant, if we had the military force to keep the English on their blasted island.
Perhaps 28th November 2010 could be 'End of Independence' day, when you surrendered your hard won sovereignty to the ECB and the IMF? ;)
 

TradCat

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The day we achieve independence for the whole country will be the day to celebrate. The Treaty was a milestone as was the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement. But none of them were the destination.
 

ocoonassa

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Before 1927, King George V reigned as king in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the Irish Free State, South Africa, etc., each of these states, in effect, as dominions, amounting to a subset of the United Kingdom. After 1927, he reigned as King of Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa, etc.
So at what stage did Ireland actually gain independence? My guess is that if we still had a German Monarch after 1927 then despite the widely held delusion we were neither a Republic or independent.
 

deiseguy

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The day the last British soldier left Dublin castle is the day that should be celebrated. Only the Irish could celebrate getting a hiding on a non-specific date arbitrarily set by the Catholic Church as our Independence day. In the immortal words of the Hairy Bowsie "The Craic we had the we died for Ireland".
 

Congalltee

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So at what stage did Ireland actually gain independence? My guess is that if we still had a German Monarch after 1927 then despite the widely held delusion we were neither a Republic or independent.
Ireland 'the State' became independent legally on the 1st January, 1938 - when our current Constitution came into force.
However, 24th April, 1916 is Ireland 'the island''s independence day (we are just running a little behind in completing the job).
 

ocoonassa

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myhonorisloyalty666

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The day we achieve independence for the whole country will be the day to celebrate. The Treaty was a milestone as was the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement. But none of them were the destination.
There is no chance in hell of Irish unification as long as there is a democratic unionist majority in Northern Ireland and as long as northern protestants believe with good reason that they will be at least discriminated against or at most violently ethnically cleansed following unification.

The Provisional IRA campaign succeeded in killing hundreds of British soldiers and RUC officers, hundreds of civilians and solidifying unionist opposition to Irish unification.

Ireland only possess 10,000 troops with no tanks, no air cover, no choppers, a handful of artillery guns and AAA batteries worth a damn. We only have a police force of 10,000 and they are unarmed. Few of the southern Irish populace have any weapons know-how nor any concept of what modern warfare entails.

Even if we occupied Northern Ireland without getting our ass handed to us by the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy, we would be an occupying force and would face guerrilla type warfare from the unionists - dead Irish soldiers and police, car bombs in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway, assassination of our politicians etc.
 

ocoonassa

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Ireland 'the State' became independent legally on the 1st January, 1938 - when our current Constitution came into force.
However, 24th April, 1916 is Ireland 'the island''s independence day (we are just running a little behind in completing the job).
Sure in that case, if it's the mere aspiration rather than actual facts that count, we may as well make our Independence day fall on the anniversary of Humberts landing in 1798 and then we'll have been free for over 200 years.
 

TradCat

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Mhel666

If we never achieve national independence then we can never celebrate it. But that's no reason to celebrate it without achieving it. I'm not sure what the point about the armies was about. The agreement is clear that a majority in the north would have to vote for unity. I support that. For a nationalist bringing about that majority is the objective.

Obviously sustaining a pro-uk majority is the unionist objective. Violence is not only wrong and counter productive it is unnecessary.
 


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