• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Homeless Czech national living in toilet dies


Iphonista

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
4,200
I remember hearing about this story a few weeks ago and thought it rather sad. Back during the bitterly cold month that was March, this guy was living in a public toilet in Ennis. He didn't want to return home but because his residency had lapsed, he wasn't in receipt of any state assistance. This meant he couldn't stay in local accommodation for homeless people.

Surely there should be some final safety net for people like him?

Homeless man living in Clare public toilet dies - RTÉ News

Homeless man, 58, lives in town
 


NewGoldDream

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
20,879
Website
-
Desperately sad stuff.

There will always be alcoholism, there will always be homelessness. But you just have to think, when this man was young and optimistic, did he think life would wind up with him homeless and drunk in an Irish toilet.
 

guano jim

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
63
what a caring nation we are - thousands of empty homes and still people living outside - wtf is the joined up thinking ?
 

sic transit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,554
what a caring nation we are - thousands of empty homes and still people living outside - wtf is the joined up thinking ?
It is sad but he was a chronic alcoholic. They don't care about anything except the drink and being found dead is a daily risk to them.
 

Paddy Sarkozy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2010
Messages
1,859
But you just have to think, when this man was young and optimistic, did he think life would wind up with him homeless and drunk in an Irish toilet.
Life is about the journey, not the destination. If most of us now knew the time and location of our final breath, we'd probably hit the bottle big time.
Good luck to the homeless guy. He probably had some good times along the way. And now his day is done. What more is there to say?
 

Libero

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
It is sad but he was a chronic alcoholic. They don't care about anything except the drink and being found dead is a daily risk to them.
There are three statements in your post.
1. The victim was a chronic alcoholic.
2. Alcoholics don't care about anything except the drink.
3. Alcoholics are at a 'daily risk' of being found dead.

Looking back at that, I'm not sure of the point in your post.
1. seems to be your way of acknowledging and yet diminishing the sadness of the story ("it is sad but...")
2. is clearly untrue. Alcoholics don't lose their minds to the addiction and usually comprehend with great misery the damage they are doing to their bodies and lives and to those around them.
3. is true of all of us.

I have to ask: is your post really a way of telling us we should ignore this story because, in a veiled and coded way, the victim is to blame for placing himself at risk and is anyhow not properly human, craving just the drink?

It seems to me there are other factors that are relevant here, including the state's policy towards those in difficult circumstances but without residency. I hope we don't lose sight of that in a rush to blame the victim. I especially hope people don't blame the victim in a dishonest attempt to pretend those other factors don't exist.

RIP.
 

gijoe

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
15,377
what a caring nation we are - thousands of empty homes and still people living outside - wtf is the joined up thinking ?
Anyone in the emergency services will tell you that there are just a proportion of people, principally with drink/drug addictions combined with mental health issues, that no matter what you do for them bar locking them up with a strait jacket are just on an inevitable trajectory to an early grave.
 

Ulster-Lad

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
10,092
There are three statements in your post.
1. The victim was a chronic alcoholic.
2. Alcoholics don't care about anything except the drink.
3. Alcoholics are at a 'daily risk' of being found dead.

Looking back at that, I'm not sure of the point in your post.
1. seems to be your way of acknowledging and yet diminishing the sadness of the story ("it is sad but...")
2. is clearly untrue. Alcoholics don't lose their minds to the addiction and usually comprehend with great misery the damage they are doing to their bodies and lives and to those around them.
3. is true of all of us.

I have to ask: is your post really a way of telling us we should ignore this story because, in a veiled and coded way, the victim is to blame for placing himself at risk and is anyhow not properly human, craving just the drink?

It seems to me there are other factors that are relevant here, including the state's policy towards those in difficult circumstances but without residency. I hope we don't lose sight of that in a rush to blame the victim. I especially hope people don't blame the victim in a dishonest attempt to pretend those other factors don't exist.

RIP.
Well I do blame the victim. We are responsible for our own life choices. These bits are from the article in the Independent.

"People were more aware of Josef's plight and were much more friendly towards him, giving him money, but that only increased massively his resources for drinking and that was not good for him," the inspector added.

Insp Kennedy said that "Josef had given his family the impression that he was getting on well in Ireland". He confirmed a post-mortem was due to be carried out to determine the exact cause of death.
Gardai are liaising with authorities in the Czech Republic to repatriate Mr Pavelka's body.
So to review, he came to Ireland to work construction 6 years ago. The industry collapsed, a shame but he had the option to return home where he had a family and a support network. Thousands of Irish in the same industry have been forced to leave these shores. He turned to alcohol which eventually killed him.

He had choices. He was responsible for his own decisions.
 

sic transit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,554
There are three statements in your post.
1. The victim was a chronic alcoholic.
2. Alcoholics don't care about anything except the drink.
3. Alcoholics are at a 'daily risk' of being found dead.

Looking back at that, I'm not sure of the point in your post.
1. seems to be your way of acknowledging and yet diminishing the sadness of the story ("it is sad but...")
2. is clearly untrue. Alcoholics don't lose their minds to the addiction and usually comprehend with great misery the damage they are doing to their bodies and lives and to those around them.
3. is true of all of us.

I have to ask: is your post really a way of telling us we should ignore this story because, in a veiled and coded way, the victim is to blame for placing himself at risk and is anyhow not properly human, craving just the drink?

It seems to me there are other factors that are relevant here, including the state's policy towards those in difficult circumstances but without residency. I hope we don't lose sight of that in a rush to blame the victim. I especially hope people don't blame the victim in a dishonest attempt to pretend those other factors don't exist.

RIP.
It was a path he found himself on and I don't blame him for anything except not seeking help. Alcoholics are addicts and like all other addicts actually do not care about anything expect themselves. We can have every sympathy with them but ultimately no matter how hard people try they will find a way a way to their drug at the expense of relationships, food, heat and pretty much everything else and that hastens their demise.
 

Libero

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
Anyone in the emergency services will tell you that there are just a proportion of people, principally with drink/drug addictions combined with mental health issues, that no matter what you do for them bar locking them up with a strait jacket are just on an inevitable trajectory to an early grave.
My cousin is in the emergency services; she doesn't tell me that.

Nevermind. What's the proportion you're talking about? Is it a fixed percentage, or does it vary from time to time?

What do you propose we do with this knowledge of a proportion? Can we actually use it to identify the hopeless cases, leaving them to die in the streets while we intelligently save those capable of salvation?

Or is it really the truth that there is no definite proportion, and that we can't always tell the hopeless cases from the cases that might have hope, but are tempted to pretend otherwise to justify doing nothing?

(As an aside, I usually take the side of state versus church but in the case of foreign nationals needing assistance but lacking residency, it is the Irish church that strains most to help and that should be recognised.)
 

captainwillard

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
2,897
My cousin is in the emergency services; she doesn't tell me that.

Nevermind. What's the proportion you're talking about? Is it a fixed percentage, or does it vary from time to time?

What do you propose we do with this knowledge of a proportion? Can we actually use it to identify the hopeless cases, leaving them to die in the streets while we intelligently save those capable of salvation?

Or is it really the truth that there is no definite proportion, and that we can't always tell the hopeless cases from the cases that might have hope, but are tempted to pretend otherwise to justify doing nothing?

(As an aside, I usually take the side of state versus church but in the case of foreign nationals needing assistance but lacking residency, it is the Irish church that strains most to help and that should be recognised.)
The guy was an addict and lived in a toilet. There are thousands of addicts in Ireland who destroy their own lives and those of their families. They made their own choices.
 

DuineEile

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
14,939
Well I do blame the victim. We are responsible for our own life choices. These bits are from the article in the Independent.





So to review, he came to Ireland to work construction 6 years ago. The industry collapsed, a shame but he had the option to return home where he had a family and a support network. Thousands of Irish in the same industry have been forced to leave these shores. He turned to alcohol which eventually killed him.

He had choices. He was responsible for his own decisions.
What a kind soul you are.


One of Thatcher's children.




D
 

Libero

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
Well I do blame the victim. We are responsible for our own life choices. These bits are from the article in the Independent. So to review, he came to Ireland to work construction 6 years ago. The industry collapsed, a shame but he had the option to return home where he had a family and a support network. Thousands of Irish in the same industry have been forced to leave these shores. He turned to alcohol which eventually killed him.

He had choices. He was responsible for his own decisions.
I don't feel easy casting judgement on this man. You or I might know the broad outlines of his case but not the details. That said, it does look like he was mostly responsible for his death.

But I'm not posting here to dispute or deny that.

What annoys me most about this story, tragic death aside, is the knowledge that people will be dishonest in how they analyse it, especially on politics.ie
Because let's face it: one relevant factor here is state policy towards foreign nationals without residency. For sure, Mr Pavelka may have received all the best assistance and died anyhow from alcoholism. But it did not help him that some assistance was denied as a matter of policy.

There will be other foreigners who will be less of a hopeless case than he (assuming he was beyond help), and I don't think it's at all a good thing if Ireland gets into the habit of reflexively blaming the victim and refusing to consider all the factors involved.
 

DuineEile

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
14,939
The guy was an addict and lived in a toilet. There are thousands of addicts in Ireland who destroy their own lives and those of their families. They made their own choices.


May I wish for you you what you wish for yourself. The freedom to tackle all of your problems on your own.

I just hope you are an expert in everything, and that self reliance proves sufficient to beat cancer, HIV, and whatever else you encounter without resorting to help from specialists.


D
 

niall78

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
11,283
Actually, he makes the reasonable point that people should accept responsibility for their own decisions.
Some people can't at one time or another 'accept responsibility for their own decisions' due to illness, addiction or mental problems. It isn't unreasonable to expect society to try to help such unfortunates get back on their feet. Are you suggesting that anyone who gets into problems should be let die or let find their own way out of the hell they've fallen into?

I hope you or nobody close to you ever has issues that can't be dealt with by 'accepting responsibility for their own decisions'.
 

captainwillard

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
2,897
May I wish for you you what you wish for yourself. The freedom to tackle all of your problems on your own.

I just hope you are an expert in everything, and that self reliance proves sufficient to beat cancer, HIV, and whatever else you encounter without resorting to help from specialists.


D
Spare me the moral righteousness. You spend most of your p.ie time telling us that you are refusing to pay your mortgage because it is someone else's fault.
 

DuineEile

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
14,939
Actually, he makes the reasonable point that people should accept responsibility for their own decisions.
What does accepting responsibility look like?

Does not doing it disentitle one to help from others?


Christ almighty. A man died whilst RESIDING in a toilet. Does no part of that strike you as wrong?




D
 

captainwillard

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
2,897
Some people can't at one time or another 'accept responsibility for their own decisions' due to illness, addiction or mental problems. It isn't unreasonable to expect society to try to help such unfortunates get back on their feet. Are you suggesting that anyone who gets into problems should be let die or let find their own way out of the hell they've fallen into?

I hope you or nobody close to you ever has issues that can't be dealt with by 'accepting responsibility for their own decisions'.

Which well deserving government budget should be cut so as to help every sick foreign national who comes to the country? Because we are spending more than we can afford and it is not just about the banks.
 

Libero

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
It was a path he found himself on and I don't blame him for anything except not seeking help. Alcoholics are addicts and like all other addicts actually do not care about anything expect themselves. We can have every sympathy with them but ultimately no matter how hard people try they will find a way a way to their drug at the expense of relationships, food, heat and pretty much everything else and that hastens their demise.
The last part of your last sentence doesn't hold water. There is such thing as an alcoholic who puts drink behind him/her and goes on to live a normal life. Insisting that alcoholics are hopeless cases (if that's what you're doing) is one way to justify not helping them, but it's a pretty weak justification.

As for your idea, repeated here, that addicts don't care about anything except themselves... alcoholics can be expected to lack empathy and be fixated on their own addiction but it's a big leap from that to claiming they care zero for others. Common sense, experience and clinical research shows that's not true. Maybe you've had bad experiences with alcoholics.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top