How can the Single Party (FF) State be ended?

[Question R24U]

Since FF first took power in 1932, it has lost power following an election, on only 5 occasions. And never two elections in a row. It has been in power for 20 of the last 22 years. In fairness an awful lot has been achieved in that time and even when the (self-made) current economic woes have passed, the State will be a far healthier position than it was in 1987 (for starters the economy is about 3 times the size). But is recognised by 72% of the electorate and large portion of FF members, that the Party needs to get out of power. For the good of the country and the Party itself. It goes without saying that those at the top will do all that they can to stay in power (Powers only wears you down when you don't have it (Andreotti)).

So how can FF be forced out of government:
Part1:the Dail.
1) FG and Labour need to win the bye-elections, leaving them on 52 and 21 respectively, with SF, they have 3 seats mre than FF.
2) The Greens hold the balance of power, exclusively.
3) The Green party will continue in governement until such time as it becomes untenable (they believe that they rae doing well in their two ministries) from within, outside due to unpopularity or Mahon.

Part 2: the Greens
4) Either Gormley and Ryan are made an offer they cannot refuse ie they will get their ministries in the next government even if their votes are not required or the Green Party is infilrated by people who will vote the Party out of power. The memebership is quite low and a critical mass could be achieved within the party to have a special conference next year.
5) Pressure. The Greens are reminded of the collective nature of government ie they are made to support every education and health cut, every dodgy appointment and decision and harassed constantly. The pressure becomes massive. Evey speech, press release, media report should highlight the fact that the Greens are the only party keeping FF in power.

Part 3: Within FF.
6) FG and Labour (and even SF) need to target FF backbenchers/former ministers, with a view to them crossing the floor. This is unlikely to be achieved, but it could make a few go independent and that could be enough.

Part 4: The Seanad.
7) The government majority here is very tight, while it cannot vote a government out, a majority here can make governing very difficult.

Part 5: the People
8) A link has to be made in people's minds that voting FF for a 1,2,3 or 4 preference, in the locals, euros and by-election is a vote for Ahern's digouts, banker bailouts, corruption and cronyism, dodgy deals. An ABFF education shoudl be co-ordinated.
9) Being associated with FF needs to be seen as anti-social. Or basically anyone in FF should be treatde in the same way as an Nazi Anglo-Irish boardmember who has just farted. Eventually the media will cop on.

Part 6: offer a credible and coherent alternative.
No elaboration required.

Part 7: the FF state needs to be dismantled.
1. Provide real accountability for spending public monies.
2. Abolishing over 800 quangos.
3. Kicking out the unqualified friends of ff from boards and bodies.
4. Ending dependence on social welfare for 640,000 citizens.
5. Greater regulation of certain aspects of business and community life eg planning and financial services.
6. Abolish a host of tax shelters and 6,000 lawful avoiders.
7.adopting EU regulations on time and then then enforcing them eg pollution, habitats
8. Reform the national broadcaster.
9. Break the power of the press barons.
10. Improving the education system with a view of qualtity and ending inequality.

I accept that I was part of the problem. I was a member of FF for 16 years.

 

[Mitsui]

I accept that I was part of the problem. I was a member of FF for 16 years.

That's a pretty brave statement round these parts, QR24U, given the attack-dog tendencies of some posters. Respect to you.

As someone who has clearly thought all this through in some depth, can you answer me an honest question?

I'm an unaffiliated voter myself, but I'm constantly amazed at some of the longtime FF voters I know - fine, decent people in every way, that I've known since school in some cases - who can look me in the eye and defend some of the most iniquitous, clearly corrupt & socially destructive things that have been done in this country over the past decade and more.

I'd like to think that at some stage they'll use the logical faculties that I know they have, but by this stage I'm starting to think it must be a matter of pathology rather than logic.

In your own experience, was there a straw & camel's back/rose-tinted-glasses-dropping moment, or was your change of view a cumulative thing?

Honest question, really - I'm just completely baffled by some of my acquaintances.

 

[forest]

well as part of the celebrations of the end of communism/dictatorships in Europe
BBC last night had a documentary on the Romanian leader Ceauşescu

 

[Digout]

FF needs to be removed from power, and its leaders put on trial for treason.

 

[Question R24U]

I'd like to think that at some stage they'll use the logical faculties that I know they have, but by this stage I'm starting to think it must be a matter of pathology rather than logic.

In your own experience, was there a straw & camel's back/rose-tinted-glasses-dropping moment, or was your change of view a cumulative thing?

Honest question, really - I'm just completely baffled by some of my acquaintances.

They need to be challenged. In a well reasoned way (as I have been done by many here), if it merely bluster then a retreat to "as sure there is no alternative" will be used. I used the analogy with the Catholic Church, they many (such as myself) did not leave FF, because there is somewhere to go. That is not good enough. The pressure needs to be put on FF members, supporters and voters to explain how voting FF in a GENERAL ELECTION can be justified given:
1) Ahern's "evidence" at Mahon.
2) The connection between Ahern and golden circles at banks (Fingleton give an informal loan to Celia Larkin so she can repay her informal loan to Bertie, who repaid her informal loan from FF) and the developers (Dunne et al).
3) Cowen's leadership style ie tribal warware, bullying, failing to inform, lack of communication, not consulting outside of the social partners (ie lobbyists), and the fact that he his institutionalised in civil service/management mentality/talk.
4) The economic strategy 2001 to 2007 - the squeaky wheels gets the oil.
5) Would Bruton be better than Lenihan, Gilmore better than Coughlan, Burton (in Enterprise and Employment) better than Coughlan.
6) On what basis do you justify FF still supporting Harney still being in Government?
7) Are you happy that Ahern, Haughey, Flynn, Burke, Lawlor and others took money which was for Fianna Fail, but used personally by them?



But as for me, I am an anonymous internet poster, so any abuse hardly matters. But I would be interested in substantive responses.

 

[anlkestony]

as harney says in the youtube film of brian cowen "Burn them, burn them all"

 

[Supermanpolitician]

Since FF first took power in 1932, it has lost power following an election, on only 5 occasions. And never two elections in a row. It has been in power for 20 of the last 22 years. In fairness an awful lot has been achieved in that time and even when the (self-made) current economic woes have passed, the State will be a far healthier position than it was in 1987 (for starters the economy is about 3 times the size). But is recognised by 72% of the electorate and large portion of FF members, that the Party needs to get out of power. For the good of the country and the Party itself. It goes without saying that those at the top will do all that they can to stay in power (Powers only wears you down when you don't have it (Andreotti)).

So how can FF be forced out of government:
Part1:the Dail.
1) FG and Labour need to win the bye-elections, leaving them on 52 and 21 respectively, with SF, they have 3 seats mre than FF.
2) The Greens hold the balance of power, exclusively.
3) The Green party will continue in governement until such time as it becomes untenable (they believe that they rae doing well in their two ministries) from within, outside due to unpopularity or Mahon.

Part 2: the Greens
4) Either Gormley and Ryan are made an offer they cannot refuse ie they will get their ministries in the next government even if their votes are not required or the Green Party is infilrated by people who will vote the Party out of power. The memebership is quite low and a critical mass could be achieved within the party to have a special conference next year.
5) Pressure. The Greens are reminded of the collective nature of government ie they are made to support every education and health cut, every dodgy appointment and decision and harassed constantly. The pressure becomes massive. Evey speech, press release, media report should highlight the fact that the Greens are the only party keeping FF in power.

Part 3: Within FF.
6) FG and Labour (and even SF) need to target FF backbenchers/former ministers, with a view to them crossing the floor. This is unlikely to be achieved, but it could make a few go independent and that could be enough.

Part 4: The Seanad.
7) The government majority here is very tight, while it cannot vote a government out, a majority here can make governing very difficult.

Part 5: the People
8) A link has to be made in people's minds that voting FF for a 1,2,3 or 4 preference, in the locals, euros and by-election is a vote for Ahern's digouts, banker bailouts, corruption and cronyism, dodgy deals. An ABFF education shoudl be co-ordinated.
9) Being associated with FF needs to be seen as anti-social. Or basically anyone in FF should be treatde in the same way as an Nazi Anglo-Irish boardmember who has just farted. Eventually the media will cop on.

Part 6: offer a credible and coherent alternative.
No elaboration required.

Part 7: the FF state needs to be dismantled.
1. Provide real accountability for spending public monies.
2. Abolishing over 800 quangos.
3. Kicking out the unqualified friends of ff from boards and bodies.
4. Ending dependence on social welfare for 640,000 citizens.
5. Greater regulation of certain aspects of business and community life eg planning and financial services.
6. Abolish a host of tax shelters and 6,000 lawful avoiders.
7.adopting EU regulations on time and then then enforcing them eg pollution, habitats
8. Reform the national broadcaster.
9. Break the power of the press barons.
10. Improving the education system with a view of qualtity and ending inequality.

I accept that I was part of the problem. I was a member of FF for 16 years.

It's not Fianna Fail per se that were the problem. It is the attitude of those who supported them. Their attitudes are often based on me feinism. So while they no longer vote FF, their reasons for voting FG, Lab, SF or whomever will probably remain the same. Unless you have had some fundmental change of mindset recently, you are still part of the problem, even if you don't vote FF.
If you have a genuine reason for not voting FF and now vote FG, then you are part of the solution.

 

[Question R24U]

It's not Fianna Fail per se that were the problem. It is the attitude of those who supported them. Their attitudes are often based on me feinism. So while they no longer vote FF, their reasons for voting FG, Lab, SF or whomever will probably remain the same. Unless you have had some fundmental change of mindset recently, you are still part of the problem, even if you don't vote FF.
If you have a genuine reason for not voting FF and now vote FG, then you are part of the solution.

A good example of challenging mindsets, if a tad partisan. In many ways the ideal result in the next general election would be fg having gained at least 25 seats ie it has a choice of partners. But while i may be outside of the tribe, it is very difficult not to be tribalistic when it comes to fine gael.

However the main concern is getting ff out and soon. Everyone has their part to play in this.

 

[wombat]

it is very difficult not to be tribalistic when it comes to fine gael.

This is why it is so hard to remove FF - the Civil War is not completely dead - look at some of the junior posters on this site if you want evidence. There are 2 blocks of about 25% who cannot vote for the other crowd - that leaves 50% to fight for. It is up to FG to convince a majority of that unaffiliated group that they will provide a better govt. than FF. Anything else leaves the door open for FF and as others have said, the problem is less with FF than their hangers on.

 

[Effin Effer!!!]

Since FF first took power in 1932, it has lost power following an election, on only 5 occasions. And never two elections in a row. It has been in power for 20 of the last 22 years. In fairness an awful lot has been achieved in that time and even when the (self-made) current economic woes have passed, the State will be a far healthier position than it was in 1987 (for starters the economy is about 3 times the size). But is recognised by 72% of the electorate and large portion of FF members, that the Party needs to get out of power. For the good of the country and the Party itself. It goes without saying that those at the top will do all that they can to stay in power (Powers only wears you down when you don't have it (Andreotti)).

So how can FF be forced out of government:
Part1:the Dail.
1) FG and Labour need to win the bye-elections, leaving them on 52 and 21 respectively, with SF, they have 3 seats mre than FF.
2) The Greens hold the balance of power, exclusively.
3) The Green party will continue in governement until such time as it becomes untenable (they believe that they rae doing well in their two ministries) from within, outside due to unpopularity or Mahon.

Part 2: the Greens
4) Either Gormley and Ryan are made an offer they cannot refuse ie they will get their ministries in the next government even if their votes are not required or the Green Party is infilrated by people who will vote the Party out of power. The memebership is quite low and a critical mass could be achieved within the party to have a special conference next year.
5) Pressure. The Greens are reminded of the collective nature of government ie they are made to support every education and health cut, every dodgy appointment and decision and harassed constantly. The pressure becomes massive. Evey speech, press release, media report should highlight the fact that the Greens are the only party keeping FF in power.

Part 3: Within FF.
6) FG and Labour (and even SF) need to target FF backbenchers/former ministers, with a view to them crossing the floor. This is unlikely to be achieved, but it could make a few go independent and that could be enough.

Part 4: The Seanad.
7) The government majority here is very tight, while it cannot vote a government out, a majority here can make governing very difficult.

Part 5: the People
8) A link has to be made in people's minds that voting FF for a 1,2,3 or 4 preference, in the locals, euros and by-election is a vote for Ahern's digouts, banker bailouts, corruption and cronyism, dodgy deals. An ABFF education shoudl be co-ordinated.
9) Being associated with FF needs to be seen as anti-social. Or basically anyone in FF should be treatde in the same way as an Nazi Anglo-Irish boardmember who has just farted. Eventually the media will cop on.

Part 6: offer a credible and coherent alternative.
No elaboration required.

Part 7: the FF state needs to be dismantled.
1. Provide real accountability for spending public monies.
2. Abolishing over 800 quangos.
3. Kicking out the unqualified friends of ff from boards and bodies.
4. Ending dependence on social welfare for 640,000 citizens.
5. Greater regulation of certain aspects of business and community life eg planning and financial services.
6. Abolish a host of tax shelters and 6,000 lawful avoiders.
7.adopting EU regulations on time and then then enforcing them eg pollution, habitats
8. Reform the national broadcaster.
9. Break the power of the press barons.
10. Improving the education system with a view of qualtity and ending inequality.

I accept that I was part of the problem. I was a member of FF for 16 years.

Why is a thread about removing Fianna Fail from government in the Fianna Fail forum. Ridiculous!!!

 

[farnaby]

Part 5: the People
8) A link has to be made in people's minds that voting FF for a 1,2,3 or 4 preference, in the locals, euros and by-election is a vote for Ahern's digouts, banker bailouts, corruption and cronyism, dodgy deals. An ABFF education shoudl be co-ordinated.

A vote for FF was, is and will be a vote for the benefit of FF and FF-approved sectors of irish society over the greater good of the nation. FG, Labour and other interested parties should lend support to an albeit separate ABFF organisation that operates during election campaigns to press home the facts about how bad FF has been for this country without the burden of having to provide alternative policies or claim better leadership. This sounds utterly negative i know but 30 years of corruption and me feinism has gone over the heads of at least 25% of the electorate and enough is enough.

Part 7: the FF state needs to be dismantled.

Radical electoral reform is essential. The concentration of power towards some wily local reps elevated by political appointment over talent - i.e. the government frontbench - must be changed; the seanad made more democratic and stronger or abolished; direct democracy initiatives must be implemented to raise political participation and action in Irish life.

 

[yehbut_nobut]

A vote for FF was, is and will be a vote for the benefit of FF and FF-approved sectors of irish society over the greater good of the nation. FG, Labour and other interested parties should lend support to an albeit separate ABFF organisation that operates during election campaigns to press home the facts about how bad FF has been for this country without the burden of having to provide alternative policies or claim better leadership. This sounds utterly negative i know but 30 years of corruption and me feinism has gone over the heads of at least 25% of the electorate and enough is enough.

I mentioned this ages ago, but worth bringing up again. Before the 1997 UK general election, an organisation was set up to advise people who to vote for in order to get the Tories out.

They did a constituency-by-constituency list of each candidate most likely to defeat every Conservative MP or candidate, based on up to date poll data. Result? Labour's landslide of 1997, (for good or ill) from which the Tories are only now starting to recover.

I remember at the time that someone here (think it was Sidewinder) said they'd be interested in a similar project here to get rid of Fianna Fail.

More complicated with STV of course, but do-able, surely?

 

[Digout]

More complicated with STV of course, but do-able, surely?

People need to be educated on how the voting system works, i.e. if they are part of the ABFF movement dont give them a preference.

 

[Liberal333]

I mentioned this ages ago, but worth bringing up again. Before the 1997 UK general election, an organisation was set up to advise people who to vote for in order to get the Tories out.

They did a constituency-by-constituency list of each candidate most likely to defeat every Conservative MP or candidate, based on up to date poll data. Result? Labour's landslide of 1997, (for good or ill) from which the Tories are only now starting to recover.

I remember at the time that someone here (think it was Sidewinder) said they'd be interested in a similar project here to get rid of Fianna Fail.

More complicated with STV of course, but do-able, surely?

Canada had a similar movement last time. ABC (anyone but Conservatives). The Tories were wiped out in Newfoundland, the only province where it had very high visibility....

 

[Digout]

I dont thing FG/Labour would have the balls to launch an ABFF campagin.

 

[anewbeginning]

It's quite simple.

If you want to put an end to the FF scourge, don't give any preference to any FF candidate.

We all know brainwashed Green party voters will put FF down as a second or lower preference though, that's what you are up against. They complain about over-development and it's impact on the environment and then support the main political party in government who are most responsible for it.

 

[Question R24U]

A vote for FF was, is and will be a vote for the benefit of FF and FF-approved sectors of irish society over the greater good of the nation. FG, Labour and other interested parties should lend support to an albeit separate ABFF organisation that operates during election campaigns to press home the facts about how bad FF has been for this country without the burden of having to provide alternative policies or claim better leadership. This sounds utterly negative i know but 30 years of corruption and me feinism has gone over the heads of at least 25% of the electorate and enough is enough.




Radical electoral reform is essential. The concentration of power towards some wily local reps elevated by political appointment over talent - i.e. the government frontbench - must be changed; the seanad made more democratic and stronger or abolished; direct democracy initiatives must be implemented to raise political participation and action in Irish life.

Amen, brother. The dearth of quality in our public reps is breathtaking. Taking Jim glenan as an example -why would anyone with real life experience bother to sit on the ff backbenches and see lesser people being appointed to ministries based on geography? Public reps do work hard - it is a shame that most of it is work councillors should be doing. The irish people have got into the bad habit of voting nationally in local elections but voting locally in national elections.

 

[slx]

One thing that parties need to make sure is that they get the vote out, particularly in the 'new urban' / 'rural sprawl' areas which have been really heavily hit by the recession.

Many people in those areas have been very apathetic in last few elections as things were going well and they were too 'busy' to bother voting.

 

[Question R24U]

I dont thing FG/Labour would have the balls to launch an ABFF campagin.

They pretty much did in the 1980s' although is was far less subtle:
- Anyone But Charlie.

 

[Tiernanator]

Stop trying to seek the demise of Sinn Féin would be one good way to prevent FF ruling forever. Many SF voters are soft on FF and Bertie Ahern to his credit recognised this. Hence his "moving north" stance. In the border counties especially FG are viewed as been slightly better than the Spanish Inquisition. Only slightly though and civil war politics are alive and well in many rural communties.

FF is a master of playing the opposition parties off against one another. They didn't really believe in the "we won't do a deal with SF" before the last general election but it was an excellent ruse that allowed them to make sure people didn't give SF transfers and therefore damage potential soft FF seats. If they had needed Sinn Féin they would have found some way to bring us into government. That is the strength of FF it mutates and changes to suit every situation. I don't admire their politics but I do admire their survival instinct. Perhaps if the rest of us in Irish politics had the same instinct we would spend less time on the opposition benches.