How could an additional 10% of people need hospital admission

Schuhart

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The newspapers state that 530,000 are waiting for a hospital service. As is typical for the Irish media, there is no critical scrutiny of that.

About 600,000 inpatient discharges take place every year in public hospitals and about another 1 million day treatments on top of that, plus however many outpatient visits. Obviously, some folk get some service more than once. But it amounts to something equivalent to one third of the population getting some significant hospital service.

Half the population has private health insurance - no waiting list for private hospitals.

So we're expected to believe that, despite all that, half a million people have some kind of meaningful need for hospital care. That's more than 10% of the population, on top of the 33% who already got a hospital treatment and the 40%+ with private health insurance who don't need to wait.

Are we expected to believe that less than 20% of the population can get through the year without hospital admission? This is nonsense, and should be discussed as such.
 


shiel

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The newspapers state that 530,000 are waiting for a hospital service. As is typical for the Irish media, there is no critical scrutiny of that.

About 600,000 inpatient discharges take place every year in public hospitals and about another 1 million day treatments on top of that, plus however many outpatient visits. Obviously, some folk get some service more than once. But it amounts to something equivalent to one third of the population getting some significant hospital service.

Half the population has private health insurance - no waiting list for private hospitals.

So we're expected to believe that, despite all that, half a million people have some kind of meaningful need for hospital care. That's more than 10% of the population, on top of the 33% who already got a hospital treatment and the 40%+ with private health insurance who don't need to wait.

Are we expected to believe that less than 20% of the population can get through the year without hospital admission? This is nonsense, and should be discussed as such.
You are right. The Irish media are pathetic.

They licked the arses of the powerful people at the head of government, financial institutions and developers when they were making decisions in the 2000 -2009 period which bankrupt the country in 2010.

The Irish media cheer led the anti austerity brigade when the country went broke.

They are presently cheer leading the irresponsible people in powerful positions in the public service who are demanding taxpayers money that should go to less powerful who depend on education, welfare, health, homeless etc services.
 

Erudite Caveman

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You are right. The Irish media are pathetic.

They licked the arses of the powerful people at the head of government, financial institutions and developers when they were making decisions in the 2000 -2009 period which bankrupt the country in 2010.

The Irish media cheer led the anti austerity brigade when the country went broke.

They are presently cheer leading the irresponsible people in powerful positions in the public service who are demanding taxpayers money that should go to less powerful who depend on education, welfare, health, homeless etc services.
We know, you make the same single transferable point all the time. The OP isn't about the meeja. Any chance of addressing it?
 

Erudite Caveman

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The newspapers state that 530,000 are waiting for a hospital service. As is typical for the Irish media, there is no critical scrutiny of that.

About 600,000 inpatient discharges take place every year in public hospitals and about another 1 million day treatments on top of that, plus however many outpatient visits. Obviously, some folk get some service more than once. But it amounts to something equivalent to one third of the population getting some significant hospital service.

Half the population has private health insurance - no waiting list for private hospitals.

So we're expected to believe that, despite all that, half a million people have some kind of meaningful need for hospital care. That's more than 10% of the population, on top of the 33% who already got a hospital treatment and the 40%+ with private health insurance who don't need to wait.

Are we expected to believe that less than 20% of the population can get through the year without hospital admission? This is nonsense, and should be discussed as such.
At face value it doesn't add up. The bit in bold would need to be cleared up - people who are sick for one reason are more likely to require additional treatment for something else. But impossible to know without more detail.
 

shiel

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We know, you make the same single transferable point all the time. The OP isn't about the meeja. Any chance of addressing it?
The op is about what is published in media.

Just telling the truth.

Nobody challenging.

Tell me it is all lies!
 

Clanrickard

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The newspapers state that 530,000 are waiting for a hospital service. As is typical for the Irish media, there is no critical scrutiny of that.

About 600,000 inpatient discharges take place every year in public hospitals and about another 1 million day treatments on top of that, plus however many outpatient visits. Obviously, some folk get some service more than once. But it amounts to something equivalent to one third of the population getting some significant hospital service.

Half the population has private health insurance - no waiting list for private hospitals.

So we're expected to believe that, despite all that, half a million people have some kind of meaningful need for hospital care. That's more than 10% of the population, on top of the 33% who already got a hospital treatment and the 40%+ with private health insurance who don't need to wait.

Are we expected to believe that less than 20% of the population can get through the year without hospital admission? This is nonsense, and should be discussed as such.
You have not done your analysis properly. Not everyone with private health care gets to go to a private hospital.There may be no hospital nearby or they are not covered in a private hospital.
 

gatsbygirl20

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You have not done your analysis properly. Not everyone with private health care gets to go to a private hospital.There may be no hospital nearby or they are not covered in a private hospital.
Or the complex nature of their illness means that it is best addressed by the specific care team in a public hospital. This happened with a relative of mine recently. Despite having expensive private health cover, the complex, uncertain nature of his illness, the fact that he needed a few weeks hospitalisation, and the fact that the most highly-trained medical team with expertise in his particular illness worked in a public hospital--all this meant that he was advised to go to the public hospital where this team operated.

Private hospitals like the quick, short-stay option for specific straight-forward procedures which are easy to diagnose, but the messy, complex stuff ends up getting dealt with in public hospitals no matter what cover you have..
 

shiel

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The Irish media are pathetic.

They told us lies about the country right through the boom.

That ended with a bankrupt country.

Telling lies about the health service is only chicken feed to them.

They do it all the time.
 

Schuhart

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You have not done your analysis properly. Not everyone with private health care gets to go to a private hospital.There may be no hospital nearby or they are not covered in a private hospital.
You are, of course, right that about 20% of our public hospital space is given over to private medicine. This doesn't materially change the point; the 530,000 doesn't include private patients.
 

Schuhart

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At face value it doesn't add up. The bit in bold would need to be cleared up - people who are sick for one reason are more likely to require additional treatment for something else. But impossible to know without more detail.
Indeed. I suppose what I feel is the question of waiting lists cannot be discussed sensibly without knowing what we're talking about.

Because mostly people can get through the year without needing a hospital service. The half-million figure should be provoking that obvious question.
 

shiel

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Indeed. I suppose what I feel is the question of waiting lists cannot be discussed sensibly without knowing what we're talking about.

Because mostly people can get through the year without needing a hospital service. The half-million figure should be provoking that obvious question.
The fact that the obvious question is not being answered tells its own story.
 

Analyzer

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The Irish media are pathetic.

They told us lies about the country right through the boom.

That ended with a bankrupt country.

Telling lies about the health service is only chicken feed to them.

They do it all the time.
Their coverage of the SiteSerf scandal was the bare minimum.
 

im axeled

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if the over crowding of the a&e's are as high as published, then each one sent home will have a consultants appointment pinned to their pyjama top, how many is that daily
 

shiel

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The fact that this thread has been abandoned says it all about the Irish media.
 

Erudite Caveman

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The fact that this thread has been abandoned says it all about the Irish media.
The media is reporting figures that they have been given by the HSE(or whoever else produced them originally). While it would be nice if they didn't accept the figures at face value, the root of the problem is the HSE.

The fact that this tread has been abandoned, doesn't say very much, but it might suggest that the media are probably right not to bother digging too deep, because most people's eyes glaze over when you get into doing stuff with numbers.
 

shiel

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The media is reporting figures that they have been given by the HSE(or whoever else produced them originally). While it would be nice if they didn't accept the figures at face value, the root of the problem is the HSE.

The fact that this tread has been abandoned, doesn't say very much, but it might suggest that the media are probably right not to bother digging too deep, because most people's eyes glaze over when you get into doing stuff with numbers.
The media did not challenge the simple fact that government expenditure tripled during the celtic tiger time.

The media did not challenge the fact that bank lending tripled during the celtic tiger.

These are not very complex figures.

But they bankrupt this country.

Now media are cheer leading the demands of many of the same powerful people who were around the various decision making tables in celtic tiger times in a re-run of the mistakes which bankrupt the country.
 

shiel

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Why is the very straightforward question in the op being ignored?
 

Malboury

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Why is the very straightforward question in the op being ignored?
It's an interesting question. I wonder, as have others earlier in the thread. if some double counting has occurred? If someone were awaiting multiple procedures or tests, could they have been counted twice and thus be inflating the numbers? If this is happening, how big an effect is it?

I'd imagine some part of general increase in hospital visits is Ireland's growing elderly population. In 2002 there were 430K people 65 and over - in 2011 there were 530K people in this demographic. I'd imagine most people 65 and over need a hospital with far more regularity than someone in their 20s.

It's an interesting question, and I too was shocked by the notion that 10% of the country was on a waiting list for a hospital visit of some sort. I'd love to see a more detailed breakdown, but I have no idea where you'd get such a detailed analysis in the press. Maybe an academic type may publish a paper on it somewhere?
 

HappyLurking

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The newspapers state that 530,000 are waiting for a hospital service. As is typical for the Irish media, there is no critical scrutiny of that.

About 600,000 inpatient discharges take place every year in public hospitals and about another 1 million day treatments on top of that, plus however many outpatient visits. Obviously, some folk get some service more than once. But it amounts to something equivalent to one third of the population getting some significant hospital service.

Half the population has private health insurance - no waiting list for private hospitals.

So we're expected to believe that, despite all that, half a million people have some kind of meaningful need for hospital care. That's more than 10% of the population, on top of the 33% who already got a hospital treatment and the 40%+ with private health insurance who don't need to wait.

Are we expected to believe that less than 20% of the population can get through the year without hospital admission? This is nonsense, and should be discussed as such.
I think this is being ignored because it's virtually incoherent. Frankly, your maths is all over the place.

1) you're counting 600,000 discharges plus 1,000,000 inpatient treatments but they'd have to be inpatients to be discharged so it's 1m total, not 1.6m

2) many of those 1m treatments would be repeat visits for the same issue. My son will have been an inpatient 3 times by the end of this year for example. So it's not 1m total it's some number less than 1m

Then by excluding the 40% with private medical insurance you get only 20% not needing any treatment but

1) many people with private cover get treated publicly for various reasons. E.g. One of my sons three surgeries was done publicly because that was the only time the surgeon had available. So there's another overlap there

2) many of the people in the 40% bracket got no treatment either despite paying private medical insurance so they need to be added to the 20% figure so the total getting no treatment at all is actually somewhere between 20 and 60%

Another point is many of the people on one waiting list will also be on one or more other waiting lists. For example you might be on a list for a CAT scan, another for MRI, etc.

Another point is the waiting lists are in many cases more than a year long so that 530k figure covers more than one year's worth of patients.

Basically, I think you need to make your case a bit more coherently before you can expect a reasonable level of response.
 

nakatomi

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An elderly patient may be on more than one waiting list, for example, to see a cardiologist, awaiting a hip replacement and a cataract operation.
 


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