How fine is the line between savagery and civilization ?

GDPR

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You funny!
The tens of thousands of murdered and ethnically cleansed Libyans do not find Obama to be funny at all. If there was any justice in this world, he would be on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
 


drummed

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The millions of Cambodians Pol Pot made vanish are still vanished.

Ethnic cleansing is it we're discussing? Fasco-communists are a disease.
 

GDPR

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The millions of Cambodians Pol Pot made vanish are still vanished.

Ethnic cleansing is it we're discussing? Fasco-communists are a disease.
Yes, Reagan and Thatcher were great supporters of Pol Pot. Supplied him with arms and money, Thatcher even sent the SAS to train his men. They kept his seat for him at the UN for years after Cambodia had been liberated by the People's Army of Vietnam.
 

drummed

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Yes, Reagan and Thatcher were great supporters of Pol Pot. Supplied him with arms and money, Thatcher even sent the SAS to train his men. They kept his seat for him at the UN for years after Cambodia had been liberated by the People's Army of Vietnam.
So Pol is not a hero of the working class then?
 

RasherHash

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[video=vimeo;167490857]https://vimeo.com/167490857[/video]
 

Dadaist

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I am off the opinion that 90+% of humanity are neithet good nor bad...sadly, they are easily led astray

Cyp
I am of the opinion that in times of social disorder and violence, it is generally the minority who are perpetrating the savagery.

Being coerced, or controlled, does not mean that one is complicit. Morally speaking, anyway.
 

Mitsui2

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I am of the opinion that in times of social disorder and violence, it is generally the minority who are perpetrating the savagery.

Being coerced, or controlled, does not mean that one is complicit. Morally speaking, anyway.
It may well be a minority which is directing or prompting savagery, but it's usually plain old Joe Public who's actually carrying it out. Yugoslavia was a salutory lesson in that.
 

Dadaist

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I think they are very far apart. There may be a lot of savagery in the world but there is also a lot of good. I suppose it depends on your definition of savagery. General Urko thinks a little pushing and shoving....handbag stuff essentially..... is savagery. I think the linked pieces in the OP are more to savage than the clip of the tinkers with the laptop. But maybe that's just me.

I see civility every day. Nothing major mind, but many neighbourly and kind acts every day. I have met some very charitable people too. Not long ago I had the great privilege to meet a couple of Dublin lads who, over the past few years, have raised about 800K for various charitable causes around the world. These guys give up stacks of their time to do this. I also lend some of my time in work to the company's charitable foundation and the amount of work, good will and effort given to chariatable organisations, and received from same around the wo5rld is very heartening.

So you could easily wallow in the savagery. By nature we sink to the lowest common denominator, but if you step back and think about it, you will surely see there is quite an amount of good in the world too. Which is there more of, I would like to think goodness, but its Friday and I'm in a good mood.
I think the point of the OP is, if all bets are off, is our combined civility enough to keep the wolf from the door.

There are too many examples from history which show that we should always expect the worst from human nature during times where there is an absence of law and order.

Kevin P puts it better than I could:

As fine as silk. Civilization isn't a given. It's not the natural order. Bloody chaos is the natural order. Civilization is a sandcastle in the surf that requires constant re-enforcement. Do your part.
 

Polly Ticks

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The terms 'civilized' and 'savage' imply fixed states; you are one or the other... and case closed.

Reality is much more fluid. The same individual can be both. The same society can be both. I would suggest that if broad strokes are applied, we are all both at various times.

However, the categories are not useful for forming law or policy.. nor are they useful for building a humane ethics. I don't see the utility except to inform prejudice.

Also, civilization --if there is such a thing, I am skeptical-- cannot be defined only by absence.. a society marked by the absence of violence and cruelty. That's to define something by negation.. not to mention the fact that such a civilization has never existed in the history of humanity.

Civilization is something to look forward to...

Perhaps.
 

GDPR

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CYP is laffing his ass off - you do realise the whole point of OP was to get you bogmen to show what you understood by civlisation and barbarity?

And hasnt it been educational - abortion, stuff that happens in brown countries and yeah something they made a film about. Dat was barbaric - especially Hollywood. :)

Any takers on civiilsation ?
 

Dadaist

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It may well be a minority which is directing or prompting savagery, but it's usually plain old Joe Public who's actually carrying it out. Yugoslavia was a salutory lesson in that.
Yes, and that is the essence of cyp's OP. Rwanda being the worst modern example of such madness.

If anyone hasn't seen it, the film The Act of Killing is an excellent documentary about Indonesian death squads from the 1960's. The members of the squads are still revered, and protected from justice, by the present dominant ruling party of Indonesia. The filmmaker, Joshua Oppenheimer, was a long term locally based British/American journalist.

The insights he gains into the minds of these killers is both fascinating and utterly chilling. It is as surreal, yet informative, a film as you are ever going to see. The men are more comfortable re-enacting horrific torture scenes dressed up as their favourite Hollywood film characters.

These guys were just a bunch of corner boys when they were called on to inflict a bit of ultraviolence in the 60's. Even though they have a place of respect in the Indonesian ruling party structures now. They are still essentially just a bunch of corner boys in their later years. But these guys are the wolf at the door of every civilized nation. Whether they are used or not. They are always there.
 

Dadaist

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CYP is laffing his ass off - you do realise the whole point of OP was to get you bogmen to show what you understood by civlisation and barbarity?

And hasnt it been educational - abortion, stuff that happens in brown countries and yeah something they made a film about. Dat was barbaric - especially Hollywood. :)

Any takers on civiilsation ?
Two pints and a packet of crisps.
 

Watcher2

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I think the point of the OP is, if all bets are off, is our combined civility enough to keep the wolf from the door.

There are too many examples from history which show that we should always expect the worst from human nature during times where there is an absence of law and order.

Kevin P puts it better than I could:
i think it is. I think more people are touched by civility, or at worst, not touched by savagery, that civility outweighs savagery in the world as a whole. And Kevin is absolutely right when he says we need to do our part. There will always be savagery. There will always be people who will want to cause harm but I believe there are more people who want to do good, who want to elevate others.
 

feedmelies

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He refused to condemn the white supremacists who are campaigning for him

Three times in a row on Feb. 28, Trump sidestepped opportunities to renounce white nationalist and former KKK leader David Duke,
Not sure what exactly this quote is doing here with other anecdotes of people being burned and hacked to death.
 


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