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How important was Monti's defeat in causing apparent Troika U-turn?


feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
If I were an Italian, I'd regard Mario Monti as something of a traitor, with his championing of German austerian claptrap and the slight matter of an unelected man usurping Italy's democracy for the first time since Mussolini.

The fact is, Europe is in the grip of a mad delusion: the fantasy that a headlong rush to austerity in the middle of the greatest depression since the dawn of capitalism is a sane course of action. That's not an exaggeration either. By this point in the depression of the 1930s, the recovery was well underway in most capitalist nations, (because governments back then did the precise opposite of austerity). It's never been this bad for this long.

So now there is an apparent reversal in an important plank of the austerian attack on the populations of Portugal and Ireland. A massive postponement to a completely unreasonable repayment schedule has been floated today, and hasn't been shot down.

Now, the original repayment schedule is no more reasonable today than it was two years ago, or last week. If austerity was a good policy two years ago, why isn't it good policy today? The crushing defeat of austerian politics in Italy is the only plausible explanation I can think of for the timing of this apparent move.

I suggest this thread shouldn't deal with Ireland in isolation, but rather work from a European perspective, given that this is, after all, the political entity in which we exist.

So, if you think that Monti's defeat and the victory of anti-austerian politics in Italy hasn't got anything to do with this development, what's your explanation for the timing?
 


ManUnited

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Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
It isn't a Troika u turn, and it has been on the cards well before the Italian elections.
 

Grumpy Jack

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Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
6,090
If I were an Italian, I'd regard Mario Monti as something of a traitor, with his championing of German austerian claptrap and the slight matter of an unelected man usurping Italy's democracy for the first time since Mussolini.

The fact is, Europe is in the grip of a mad delusion: the fantasy that a headlong rush to austerity in the middle of the greatest depression since the dawn of capitalism is a sane course of action. That's not an exaggeration either. By this point in the depression of the 1930s, the recovery was well underway in most capitalist nations, (because governments back then did the precise opposite of austerity). It's never been this bad for this long.

So now there is an apparent reversal in an important plank of the austerian attack on the populations of Portugal and Ireland. A massive postponement to a completely unreasonable repayment schedule has been floated today, and hasn't been shot down.

Now, the original repayment schedule is no more reasonable today than it was two years ago, or last week. If austerity was a good policy two years ago, why isn't it good policy today? The crushing defeat of austerian politics in Italy is the only plausible explanation I can think of for the timing of this apparent move.

I suggest this thread shouldn't deal with Ireland in isolation, but rather work from a European perspective, given that this is, after all, the political entity in which we exist.

So, if you think that Monti's defeat and the victory of anti-austerian politics in Italy hasn't got anything to do with this development, what's your explanation for the timing?
It's nothing to do with Monti's defeat in Italy - the extension of EU debt maturities was flagged weeks ago, before the Italian elections.

It's also not the Troika but the EU element of it.

Portugal and Ireland had been working behind the scenes on securing this concession for months once it was granted to Greece.

When it was clear there was sufficient support and consensus for such a move, it was formally tabled by Portugal at an Ecofin meeting in January chaired by Michael Noonan as part of the Irish presidency and supported by Ireland.

Absolutely fvck all to do with Italy but sure why would such facts matter on P.ie?
 

Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,765
..............I love how you've offered no evidence of a decision against the postponement. There's no U turn.
 

daveL

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Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,591
If I were an Italian, I'd regard Mario Monti as something of a traitor, with his championing of German austerian claptrap and the slight matter of an unelected man usurping Italy's democracy for the first time since Mussolini.

The fact is, Europe is in the grip of a mad delusion: the fantasy that a headlong rush to austerity in the middle of the greatest depression since the dawn of capitalism is a sane course of action. That's not an exaggeration either. By this point in the depression of the 1930s, the recovery was well underway in most capitalist nations, (because governments back then did the precise opposite of austerity). It's never been this bad for this long.

So now there is an apparent reversal in an important plank of the austerian attack on the populations of Portugal and Ireland. A massive postponement to a completely unreasonable repayment schedule has been floated today, and hasn't been shot down.

Now, the original repayment schedule is no more reasonable today than it was two years ago, or last week. If austerity was a good policy two years ago, why isn't it good policy today? The crushing defeat of austerian politics in Italy is the only plausible explanation I can think of for the timing of this apparent move.

I suggest this thread shouldn't deal with Ireland in isolation, but rather work from a European perspective, given that this is, after all, the political entity in which we exist.

So, if you think that Monti's defeat and the victory of anti-austerian politics in Italy hasn't got anything to do with this development, what's your explanation for the timing?
That was a waste of typing. Nothing at all to do with Italy.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,832
All going to plan, it's about flooding countries and citizens with useless debt so banks and hedgefunds can speculate and keep profits whilst getting you to pick up the tab when toxic derivatives worth trillions dont work out as planned.
'Hey If you cant pay this debt you never really owed, or if you want a little bit more money then dont worry - we'll have your forests, energy production ie assets instead', lowering your future ability to be self sufficient.

'democracy lol..how quaint? oh yeah we pick the leader of the country in future...here's an ex banker to oversee matters'

If someone said financial enslavement and asset stripping of sovereigns they would call you a nutjob. The reality that personal debt is at an all time high and we are busy handing over our assets is not the same thing apparently!

its useless debt and not even real money. unbacked paper.

even at a real basic level ie the small change;
Your Euro is 1c,2c,5c coins are steel!
Your 20c,50c are 'Nordic gold' ie mostly copper.
the rest are bits of paper. Paper!

If we linked income to currency supply I would not have a problem with it but we dont so any extra currency created by Quantitative easing or 'Bailouts' never goes into the real economy.

It goes to those involved in creating the mess and that is not the way we should allow ourselves to be used.

each of these austerity banking muppets should be kicked into touch.

Are we citizens first or are we bank customers first...I'm starting to find it a little hard to tell??
 

ManUnited

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Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
All going to plan, it's about flooding countries and citizens with useless debt so banks and hedgefunds can speculate and keep profits whilst getting you to pick up the tab when toxic derivatives worth trillions dont work out as planned.
'Hey If you cant pay this debt you never really owed, or if you want a little bit more money then dont worry - we'll have your forests, energy production ie assets instead', lowering your future ability to be self sufficient.

'democracy lol..how quaint? oh yeah we pick the leader of the country in future...here's an ex banker to oversee matters'

If someone said financial enslavement and asset stripping of sovereigns they would call you a nutjob. The reality that personal debt is at an all time high and we are busy handing over our assets is not the same thing apparently!

its useless debt and not even real money. unbacked paper.

even at a real basic level ie the small change;
Your Euro is 1c,2c,5c coins are steel!
Your 20c,50c are 'Nordic gold' ie mostly copper.
the rest are bits of paper. Paper!

If we linked income to currency supply I would not have a problem with it but we dont so any extra currency created by Quantitative easing or 'Bailouts' never goes into the real economy.

It goes to those involved in creating the mess and that is not the way we should allow ourselves to be used.
I don't understand the illuminati type theories like this. If the idea is to enslave and impoverish us all, then who will buy their trinkets?
 

commonman

Well-known member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
5,360
As a lay man i know feck all about banks and markets but was watching the film, Margin Call, and if that the way banks are ran i give up.
 

Hewson

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Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,337
If I were an Italian, I'd regard Mario Monti as something of a traitor, with his championing of German austerian claptrap and the slight matter of an unelected man usurping Italy's democracy for the first time since Mussolini.

The fact is, Europe is in the grip of a mad delusion: the fantasy that a headlong rush to austerity in the middle of the greatest depression since the dawn of capitalism is a sane course of action. That's not an exaggeration either. By this point in the depression of the 1930s, the recovery was well underway in most capitalist nations, (because governments back then did the precise opposite of austerity). It's never been this bad for this long.

So now there is an apparent reversal in an important plank of the austerian attack on the populations of Portugal and Ireland. A massive postponement to a completely unreasonable repayment schedule has been floated today, and hasn't been shot down.

Now, the original repayment schedule is no more reasonable today than it was two years ago, or last week. If austerity was a good policy two years ago, why isn't it good policy today? The crushing defeat of austerian politics in Italy is the only plausible explanation I can think of for the timing of this apparent move.

I suggest this thread shouldn't deal with Ireland in isolation, but rather work from a European perspective, given that this is, after all, the political entity in which we exist.

So, if you think that Monti's defeat and the victory of anti-austerian politics in Italy hasn't got anything to do with this development, what's your explanation for the timing?
Today's announcement on debt restructuring may not be related to the result of the Italian election, but the result almost certainly helped to focus minds, particularly in Berlin, that the time for telling the plebs on the periphery that life begins and ends with account balancing has come to an end.

Any election result that causes headaches for the Eurocrats is to be warmly welcomed.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,832
I don't understand the illuminati type theories like this. If the idea is to enslave and impoverish us all, then who will buy their trinkets?
Illuminati? Get the tin foil out there lad.

What trinkets?

It's not a theory. It's not about the illuminati it's about fiat currencies and the irresponsible printing thereof and the resultant return from productivity switching, in ever increasing amounts, from the worker to the top.

The supply of fiat currency is increased constantly.

Is the amount of money in your pocket after a weeks work increasing all the time?

If I said that there was twice the amount Euro than there was 3 years ago would you not start to wonder why your take home pay is not two times higher? Or even 1.5 times as high?

Would you not wonder where all that extra money is going? Ever?
 

anewbeginning

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Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
4,624
It seems to be the fashion these days to accuse those tasked with clearing up messes left behind as 'traitors' while allowing those off scot free who caused the mess in the first place.

The real traitors in many of these countries are the populist politicians who cut taxes and raised spending to an unsustainable level and borrowed to make up the difference, pushing a mountain of debt on future generations.
 

ManUnited

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
Illuminati? Get the tin foil out there lad.

What trinkets?

It's not a theory. It's not about the illuminati it's about fiat currencies and the irresponsible printing thereof and the resultant return from productivity switching, in ever increasing amounts, from the worker to the top.

The supply of fiat currency is increased constantly.

Is the amount of money in your pocket after a weeks work increasing all the time?

If I said that there was twice the amount Euro than there was 3 years ago would you not start to wonder why your take home pay is not two times higher? Or even 1.5 times as high?

Would you not wonder where all that extra money is going? Ever?
Tomato, tomato. Replace illuminati with whatever your pet fear is but the conclusions are always the same.
 

southwestkerry

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Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
4,229
I am not sure it has all that much to do with Italy or Monti, may have had a bearing in recent days but thats all. Its more than likely that the Troika plus more to the point the EU machine are comming around to realising that the old way off doing things is not always the best way. After all, regardless who is doing the talking for us they do not want to see another EU country sink like Greece as thats not exactly going to help the euro much.
swk
 

Lempo

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Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
6,314
Today's announcement on debt restructuring may not be related to the result of the Italian election, but the result almost certainly helped to focus minds, particularly in Berlin, that the time for telling the plebs on the periphery that life begins and ends with account balancing has come to an end.
Somehow I feel they won't be going ahead with policy of using money one does not have and solving the ensuing problems afterwards with printing either.
 

patfitzbally

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Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
1,023
you begin with "if I was an Italian" why not start with "as an Irishman" what you would do with aherne,cowen,kenny et al?
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,832
What do you think that has to do with the OP?
Quite simply, Monti was part of an establishment which was pro austerity. I dont think the people of the world are ready to suffer austerity when they never elected the bankers, the EC, the ECB nor the IMF.

If thats all they've got to offer they can ************************ right off. Put simply.

Using the Euro or SDRs in a roundabout way to try to foist austerity on people will not work ultimately. Monti is part of that consensus that believes it will.

I disagree with Monti, glad he's gone and I'll have a rant when I bloody well feel like alright lol :D
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,832
Tomato, tomato. Replace illuminati with whatever your pet fear is but the conclusions are always the same.
Yes, yes it is. God you're a special case, like Enda and the lads. I notice you did nto answer ANY of the questions?

Better to avoid answering questions or even asking them and be someone who believes there is a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists.

Nice.
 

feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Quite simply, Monti was part of an establishment which was pro austerity. I dont think the people of the world are ready to suffer austerity when they never elected the bankers, the EC, the ECB nor the IMF.

If thats all they've got to offer they can ************************ right off. Put simply.

Using the Euro or SDRs in a roundabout way to try to foist austerity on people will not work ultimately. Monti is part of that consensus that believes it will.

I disagree with Monti, glad he's gone and I'll have a rant when I bloody well feel like alright lol :D
I love how the Monti defender said he was "tasked" with the job of imposing austerity as the supposed method of "cleaning up" something. Kind of how the US cleaned Hiroshima up, I guess.

He wasn't "elected to" impose austerity, he was "tasked with" it by someone other than about 90% of the Italian electorate. That's a problem.

The point about the timing may be a valid one, but the absence of any news of the concession until now raises the question of the timing. Why not in January?
 

ManUnited

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Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
Yes, yes it is. God you're a special case, like Enda and the lads. I notice you did nto answer ANY of the questions?

Better to avoid answering questions or even asking them and be someone who believes there is a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists.

Nice.
No point in answering the questions. I don't believe conspiracy theories so am unlikely to think there is a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists. Although, it's a new one, I like it.
There is, however, a conspiracy industry. The point is I have been hearing the same theory for 35 odd years, the only difference is the particular entity the theorist is trying to blame for their woes. Didn't make sense then, doesn't make sense now.
 

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