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How incompetent and useless are Auctioneers & Valuers?


Aristodemus

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Oct 8, 2009
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We are well used to these experts knowing absolutely nothing about property prices. It hasn't stopped some of the most incompetent ones jumping on the gravy train that is NAMA as official valuers including the imbecile that valued the Glass Bottle site in Dublin 4 at over €400m. However, when it comes to art and atefacts one would think that in the spirit of Lovejoy that some of these people would know their business. Not so. Yesterday at a sale in Durrow an item went for 157 times its valuation, no doubt assessed by a "competent valuer". The tragedy is that his commission is paid on the price achieved and not on his valuation.

Chinese jade seal valued at €5,000 fetches €630,000 - National News - Independent.ie
 

SPN

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Feb 2, 2004
Messages
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All it takes is two bidders with deep pockets to get into a bidding war and any anticipated "value" goes straight out the window.

That's the same flaw we have with the proposed property tax. It isn't based on what you paid for your house, but rather what two wealthy bidders bid up the the "value" of the house next door to.

Now everybody on the street is suddenly much "wealthier", even though they have the same amount of cash in their pockets (and will have less cash in their pockets next year when they have to fork out a tax based on the new "value" of their homes.
 

Hitch 22

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Joined
Dec 26, 2011
Messages
5,220
We are well used to these experts knowing absolutely nothing about property prices. It hasn't stopped some of the most incompetent ones jumping on the gravy train that is NAMA as official valuers including the imbecile that valued the Glass Bottle site in Dublin 4 at over €400m. However, when it comes to art and atefacts one would think that in the spirit of Lovejoy that some of these people would know their business. Not so. Yesterday at a sale in Durrow an item went for 157 times its valuation, no doubt assessed by a "competent valuer". The tragedy is that his commission is paid on the price achieved and not on his valuation.

Chinese jade seal valued at €5,000 fetches €630,000 - National News - Independent.ie
A value is subjective you idiot.
It's imaginary.
The work you do has no value unless someone decides it does and thinks it is worth their while to benefit from your work by giving pieces of paper called money. They have no value if the person who you use the pieces of paper to buy food from decides they aren't worth their time taking in exchange.
We give value to things because we think they will benefit us.
So if enough people think a piece of property is worth £500,000 it is worth it until such time as they think otherwise.
 

meriwether

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Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
12,604
We are well used to these experts knowing absolutely nothing about property prices. It hasn't stopped some of the most incompetent ones jumping on the gravy train that is NAMA as official valuers including the imbecile that valued the Glass Bottle site in Dublin 4 at over €400m. However, when it comes to art and atefacts one would think that in the spirit of Lovejoy that some of these people would know their business. Not so. Yesterday at a sale in Durrow an item went for 157 times its valuation, no doubt assessed by a "competent valuer". The tragedy is that his commission is paid on the price achieved and not on his valuation.

Chinese jade seal valued at €5,000 fetches €630,000 - National News - Independent.ie
Jesus Christ almighty.

How stupid are you?
 

sic transit

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Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,586
All it takes is two bidders with deep pockets to get into a bidding war and any anticipated "value" goes straight out the window.

That's the same flaw we have with the proposed property tax. It isn't based on what you paid for your house, but rather what two wealthy bidders bid up the the "value" of the house next door to.

Now everybody on the street is suddenly much "wealthier", even though they have the same amount of cash in their pockets (and will have less cash in their pockets next year when they have to fork out a tax based on the new "value" of their homes.
Initially this seems to be the case but I did hear a comment yesterday suggesting that councils will be able to adjust the rate from 2015. This in theory will mean lower rates in areas like cities and towns, where services are cheaper to provide.
 
Last edited:

Aristodemus

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Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
3,741
A value is subjective you idiot.
It's imaginary.
The work you do has no value unless someone decides it does and thinks it is worth their while to benefit from your work by giving pieces of paper called money. They have no value if the person who you use the pieces of paper to buy food from decides they aren't worth their time taking in exchange.
We give value to things because we think they will benefit us.
So if enough people think a piece of property is worth £500,000 it is worth it until such time as they think otherwise.
I am well aware that any valuation is subjective. However some valuations are supposed to carry more weight than others. For instance, if you are disposing of a property which you may have owned for 40 years and is subject to Capital Gains Tax the Revenue will accept the valuation of a "competent valuer" for the purposes of the tax. If you refuse to use the services of one of these "experts" the chances are you will face a higher bill. My complaint is that these people are no more expert than anyone else yet they earn fees, not on the basis of any professional service they offer but merely on what price an object or property achieves with absolutely no input from them
 

potholedogger

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Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
My problem with the Auctioneering profession is with our property market. They played a huge part in blowing a bubble and bursting it.

Too much emphasis was placed on their supposed valuations which merely added a few percent to the last price achieved in the area.
 

Spanner Island

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Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
24,203
Initially this seems to be the case but I did hear a comment yesterday suggesting that councils will be able to adjust the rate from 2015. This in theory will mean lower rates in areas like cities and towns, where services are cheaper to provide.
...which will be when the sh!t really hits the fan if it hasn't done already by then...

If they attempt to justify it as a cost for services they won't have a prayer...

Why should anyone living in rural Ireland on potholed roads without lights, with a septic tank in the garden and who pays their electricity and refuse collection bills have to pay for any services from any council?

This idiotic tax should be based on a combination of property area and use and not on value.

Basing it on value will create the real potential for abuse that will see all sorts of vested interests (including the government) benefiting from higher valuations...

It is a disastrous decision that proves 'establishment' Ireland have learned no lessons from the property bubble.
 

potholedogger

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Oct 17, 2012
Messages
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...which will be when the sh!t really hits the fan if it hasn't done already by then...

If they attempt to justify it as a cost for services they won't have a prayer...

Why should anyone living in rural Ireland on potholed roads without lights, with a septic tank in the garden and who pays their electricity and refuse collection bills have to pay for any services from any council?

This idiotic tax should be based on property area and use and that's it.

Basing it on value is creating the real potential for abuse that will see all sorts of vested interests (including the government) benefiting from higher valuations...

It is a disastrous decision that proves 'establishment' Ireland have learned no lessons from the property bubble.
Too what extent could people be charged for the services they actually use?
 

Aristodemus

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Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
3,741
...which will be when the sh!t really hits the fan if it hasn't done already by then...

If they attempt to justify it as a cost for services they won't have a prayer...

Why should anyone living in rural Ireland on potholed roads without lights, with a septic tank in the garden and who pays their electricity and refuse collection bills have to pay for any services from any council?
This idiotic tax should be based on a combination of property area and use and not on value.

Basing it on value will create the real potential for abuse that will see all sorts of vested interests (including the government) benefiting from higher valuations...

It is a disastrous decision that proves 'establishment' Ireland have learned no lessons from the property bubble.
This is a common misconception. This tax is not to pay directly for services but is merely a further means of collecting revenue
 

sic transit

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Jan 30, 2008
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25,586
This is a common misconception. This tax is not to pay directly for services but is merely a further means of collecting revenue
Which, in theory, is aimed at giving local government the money they need to provide those services and not have the begging bowl out to the Exchequer.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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Oct 31, 2010
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Which, in theory, is aimed at giving local government the money they need to provide those services and not have the begging bowl out to the Exchequer.
Then why not apply the different charges to the houses where the services are provided? It is a revenue raising measure and bears no correlation with the services provided.
 

sic transit

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Then why not apply the different charges to the houses where the services are provided? It is a revenue raising measure and bears no correlation with the services provided.
In an ideal world where we had actual values to go on sure but we've barely got one leg of the stool sorted out - the database, and a very urgent need to widen the tax base.
 

Aristodemus

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Which, in theory, is aimed at giving local government the money they need to provide those services and not have the begging bowl out to the Exchequer.
Good theory, but the reality is to pay the Anglo Promissory Note
 

SPN

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Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,890
Which, in theory, is aimed at giving local government the money they need to provide those services and not have the begging bowl out to the Exchequer.
That's the cover.

The real issue is to create collateral that can be used to sell secured sovereign bonds.
 

SPN

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In an ideal world where we had actual values to go on sure but we've barely got one leg of the stool sorted out - the database, and a very urgent need to widen the tax base.
There is no such "urgent need".

We have one economy. All taxes come from that economy.

In the real world the economy is running at 2002 levels, but in the fantasy world of the insiders there is still enough money out there to maintain their pay, perks and pensions at the levels they got used to during the lending bubble.

Not a sensible or sustainable way of going about things at all.
 

good dog

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Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
2,546
We are well used to these experts knowing absolutely nothing about property prices. It hasn't stopped some of the most incompetent ones jumping on the gravy train that is NAMA as official valuers including the imbecile that valued the Glass Bottle site in Dublin 4 at over €400m. However, when it comes to art and atefacts one would think that in the spirit of Lovejoy that some of these people would know their business. Not so. Yesterday at a sale in Durrow an item went for 157 times its valuation, no doubt assessed by a "competent valuer". The tragedy is that his commission is paid on the price achieved and not on his valuation.
Well said. They even have a college course and describe themselves as a 'profession'. A local paper reported where an auctioneer commented on a proposed sale of a local football pitch if sold 'it could fetch between 2 and 3 million euro'. Massive difference between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,890
Initially this seems to be the case but I did hear a comment yesterday suggesting that councils will be able to adjust the rate from 2015. This in theory will mean lower rates in areas like cities and towns, where services are cheaper to provide.
Councils will adjust the multiplier to account for their respective County Manager's sense of grandiosity and the pet projects they want done, but the notional "values" that underpin the property tax will be based on the latest sales of property in an area.

And this is the fatal flaw in the whole racket: They want me to pay a tax based on what you could afford to pay for a neighbouring property.
 

Aristodemus

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Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
3,741
Well said. They even have a college course and describe themselves as a 'profession'. A local paper reported where an auctioneer commented on a proposed sale of a local football pitch if sold 'it could fetch between 2 and 3 million euro'. Massive difference between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000.
I'd imagine that when a clown like that issues forth with his BS everyone adopts a suitably grave demeanour and nods sagely
 

Howya

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Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
1,690
I am well aware that any valuation is subjective. However some valuations are supposed to carry more weight than others. For instance, if you are disposing of a property which you may have owned for 40 years and is subject to Capital Gains Tax the Revenue will accept the valuation of a "competent valuer" for the purposes of the tax. If you refuse to use the services of one of these "experts" the chances are you will face a higher bill. My complaint is that these people are no more expert than anyone else yet they earn fees, not on the basis of any professional service they offer but merely on what price an object or property achieves with absolutely no input from them
In that particular situation, the valuer would be on the hook if the Revenue decided to challenge the valuation. Interesting position to be in - the client wants a low valuation to minimise tax, the valuer is being paid by the client but the Revenue hold a big stick - is it ever used?
 
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