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How many British soldiers died in the Northern conflict?


Trefor

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According to the Daily Telegraph the number is 763.

According to CAIN it's 499 + 6 territorials.

McKitterick, Kelters, Feeney & Thornton (Lost Lives) tell us that it's 503.

Who's right, & why the huge discrepancy?
 


Joined
Jun 21, 2007
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Trefor said:
According to the Daily Telegraph the number is 763.

According to CAIN it's 499 + 6 territorials.

McKitterick, Kelters, Feeney & Thornton (Lost Lives) tell us that it's 503.

Who's right, & why the huge discrepancy?
i always thought that Irish men killed nearly a thousand in the 20th century.
 

Trefor

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oclmenai.blogspot.com
the hatchetman said:
Trefor said:
According to the Daily Telegraph the number is 763.

According to CAIN it's 499 + 6 territorials.

McKitterick, Kelters, Feeney & Thornton (Lost Lives) tell us that it's 503.

Who's right, & why the huge discrepancy?
i always thought that Irish men killed nearly a thousand in the 20th century.
I'm not including RUC, UDR & the like.
 
Joined
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59
Trefor said:
Who's right, & why the huge discrepancy?
Just a quick tally. If you add up the ba, ta, udr, rir, raf, rn and ex(ba(udr(rir))) numbers then you get something very close to the 763 figure.
 

William

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So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
 

Aindriu

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William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
 

PatMcL

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May 17, 2007
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99
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Or just an indicator of the efficiency re one against the other.
Westminister never really gave a toss about the sacks of meat they despatched to here, just as the Falklands were an election prop for Thatcher. The miserable sods currently slithering out of Basra with their tail between their legs aren't really mentioned by anyone.
 

cain1798

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Aug 6, 2003
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418
Trefor said:
the hatchetman said:
Trefor said:
According to the Daily Telegraph the number is 763.

According to CAIN it's 499 + 6 territorials.

McKitterick, Kelters, Feeney & Thornton (Lost Lives) tell us that it's 503.

Who's right, & why the huge discrepancy?
i always thought that Irish men killed nearly a thousand in the 20th century.
I'm not including RUC, UDR & the like.
Ummmm, why not? The UDR, and it's sectarianism free successor the RIR, were British Army units. The fact that they were raised in the North doesn't make a difference. They were fully fledged battalions of the British Army and many of them are now winning hearts and minds in Iraq.

The Telegraph also ran a piece a while back suggesting that there were about two dozen more dead than had previously been believed because the British Army was underreporting deaths in the North. Trying to find it now.,
 

PatMcL

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'The Telegraph also ran a piece a while back suggesting that there were about two dozen more dead than had previously been believed because the British Army was underreporting deaths in the North. Trying to find it now., '


There was an incident in Cappagh in the early 1980's when the IRA claimed to have killed two undercover British soldiers. It happened on a Saturday evening and dozens of people who had been attending evening mass saw the bodies in a crashed car. At the time the BA denied the claims.
 

Conuil

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PatMcL said:
'The Telegraph also ran a piece a while back suggesting that there were about two dozen more dead than had previously been believed because the British Army was underreporting deaths in the North. Trying to find it now., '


There was an incident in Cappagh in the early 1980's when the IRA claimed to have killed two undercover British soldiers. It happened on a Saturday evening and dozens of people who had been attending evening mass saw the bodies in a crashed car. At the time the BA denied the claims.
I remember the incident - it was Feb. 1990 - Volunteer. Martin Mc Caughey from Tyrone was shot and badly injured. During his recovery - he lost his Council seat as he wasn't able to attend etc.

Sadly, Martin and Volunteer. Dessie Grew were killed months later just outside Loughgall by the SAS

I'd imagine there were many deaths of Brits that went unreported during the recent conflict.
 

beardyboy

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beardyboy

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Aindriu said:
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
yes - only 8000 to 10000 imprisoned - no support there then
 

Aindriu

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beardyboy said:
Aindriu said:
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
yes - only 8000 to 10000 imprisoned - no support there then
But out of a nationalist population of how many? Go do the maths - very low support in reality across the island as a whole.
 
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PatMcL said:
'The Telegraph also ran a piece a while back suggesting that there were about two dozen more dead than had previously been believed because the British Army was underreporting deaths in the North. Trying to find it now., '


There was an incident in Cappagh in the early 1980's when the IRA claimed to have killed two undercover British soldiers. It happened on a Saturday evening and dozens of people who had been attending evening mass saw the bodies in a crashed car. At the time the BA denied the claims.
Think Sunday Indo reported it at the time and soldiers were in a VW Golf.

BA have stated previously that number of deaths were not significant as they lost as many through road accidents and other accidents in Germany.

It was also known that on occasions soldiers who were killed in Ireland would all of a sudden have died in a training accident somewhere else to minimise the propoganda value.
 

William

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beardyboy said:
Aindriu said:
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
yes - only 8000 to 10000 imprisoned - no support there then
Sure, but the conflict stretched over nearly 30 years, so that isnt really that big a number.

Anyway, if just a fraction of those thousands of volunteers imprisoned had resist arrest and made a last stand, then the number of dead security forces would maybe have been the double of what it ended up with?

One just has to assume that they weren't willing to give up their lifelong dreams of riding on the Marrakesh Express or I don't know...having their own IT-Company..?
 

Aindriu

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Joined
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William said:
beardyboy said:
Aindriu said:
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
yes - only 8000 to 10000 imprisoned - no support there then
Sure, but the conflict stretched over nearly 30 years, so that isnt really that big a number.
Anyway, if just a fraction of those thousands of volunteers imprisoned had resist arrest and made a last stand, then the number of dead security forces would maybe have been the double of what it ended up with?

One just has to assume that they weren't willing to give up their lifelong dreams of riding on the Marrakesh Express or I don't know...having their own IT-Company..?
334 people a year imprisoned - I would guess that the Vietcong and North Vietnamese Armies lost far more than that a year in their "armed struggle".
 

PAUL MEYER

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Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
48
Conuil said:
PatMcL said:
'The Telegraph also ran a piece a while back suggesting that there were about two dozen more dead than had previously been believed because the British Army was underreporting deaths in the North. Trying to find it now., '


There was an incident in Cappagh in the early 1980's when the IRA claimed to have killed two undercover British soldiers. It happened on a Saturday evening and dozens of people who had been attending evening mass saw the bodies in a crashed car. At the time the BA denied the claims.
I remember the incident - it was Feb. 1990 - Volunteer. Martin Mc Caughey from Tyrone was shot and badly injured. During his recovery - he lost his Council seat as he wasn't able to attend etc.

Sadly, Martin and Volunteer. Dessie Grew were killed months later just outside Loughgall by the SAS

I'd imagine there were many deaths of Brits that went unreported during the recent conflict.
In which case I would suggest that your imagination is running away from you and that you need to do some serious thinking about the practicalities and implications of such a practice.

PatMcL wrote:

It was also known that on occasions soldiers who were killed in Ireland would all of a sudden have died in a training accident somewhere else to minimise the propoganda value.
Well if it is "known" then perhaps you can provide us with some names places and dates to substantiate this extraordinarly allegation?
 

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