How many British soldiers died in the Northern conflict?

beardyboy

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Aindriu said:
William said:
beardyboy said:
Aindriu said:
William said:
So the British Army lost 763 men killed,
while the IRA lost 276 and according to wikipedia (citing a book called Provisional IRA (1988)) about 8000-10000 IRA members were imprisoned.

The Troubles was certainly special when realizing that the counter-insurgency forces were more willing to sacrifice their men than the guerilla force fighting them.
Maybe the main reason the IRA lost where the Vietcong and others succeded?
Possibly, although the fact that they were also riddled with informers right up to high levels did not help. They also had nowhere near as much public support in the north as they would lead people to believe and had very little support in the ROI.
yes - only 8000 to 10000 imprisoned - no support there then
Sure, but the conflict stretched over nearly 30 years, so that isnt really that big a number.
Anyway, if just a fraction of those thousands of volunteers imprisoned had resist arrest and made a last stand, then the number of dead security forces would maybe have been the double of what it ended up with?

One just has to assume that they weren't willing to give up their lifelong dreams of riding on the Marrakesh Express or I don't know...having their own IT-Company..?
334 people a year imprisoned - I would guess that the Vietcong and North Vietnamese Armies lost far more than that a year in their "armed struggle".
So what - totally different situation - but anyway let us look at stats. Vietnam is a country of about 80 million people. according to Vietnamese . The Vietnamese in 1995 said that 1 million of their combatants died. So if we say that the Nationalist people NOW have 800000 we would expect, in a comparable situation - that 1 in 80 would be killed. However if we substitute killed with imprisoned we get a figure of 10000 people - damn that coincidence. If the IRA were able to sustain a yearly attrition of these amounts it shows a high amount of personnel consistently joining. And for all those who joined how many sympathisers existed? I would say that this is representative of massive number of support and you may wish to through those figures around - that is just nit picking. The point is that there is sustained and massive support demonstrated
 


Kf

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A book called, I think, Queen and Country, a frank account of a Brit soldiers life published a few years ago, caused some small controversory as the guy who wrote it, based on his diaries, wrote of the accounts of him losing six of his army mates in north and west belfast in the early 70's. He named them and outline the instances of their deaths, all killed by the IRA.

Turned out that only four of them were listed by CAIN as being killed by IRA, other two according to info supplied by Brit army was they were killed in training accidents. Family were furious as they never knew there was a minor cover up going on and they had recieved letters from the Brit armies COs outlinng their deaths in combat.

Oh it also outlined the random beatings and torture they applied to local nationalist youth. He very much enjoyed that part.
 

Catalpa

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I remember talking to a guy one night who was from a city in the North who witnessed an incident in which a nail bomb was thrown at some British soldiers and went off right beside one soldier's head - he went down blood everywhere and his mates dragged him off...

- yet when they got the papers the following day there was nare a mention...they reckon he was a dead man anyway after the injuries he sustained.
 

Ireland2007

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334 people a year imprisoned - I would guess that the Vietcong and North Vietnamese Armies lost far more than that a year in their "armed struggle".
Err... what's the population of Vietnam compared to that of Ireland? Not to mention the US and North Vietnamese were openly fighting a war against the Vietcong whereas here the Brits downplaying the conflict.
 

PAUL MEYER

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Kf said:
A book called, I think, Queen and Country, a frank account of a Brit soldiers life published a few years ago, caused some small controversory as the guy who wrote it, based on his diaries, wrote of the accounts of him losing six of his army mates in north and west belfast in the early 70's. He named them and outline the instances of their deaths, all killed by the IRA.

Turned out that only four of them were listed by CAIN as being killed by IRA, other two according to info supplied by Brit army was they were killed in training accidents. Family were furious as they never knew there was a minor cover up going on and they had recieved letters from the Brit armies COs outlinng their deaths in combat.

Oh it also outlined the random beatings and torture they applied to local nationalist youth. He very much enjoyed that part.
He was from the Green Howards, I've glanced through the book and didn't think much of it as it happens. At any rate, the Green Howards lost a total of 9 men during the troubles according to their entry on the Palace Barracks Memorial Garden. Each of them is named and the date and circumstances of their deaths is given. I've cross-checked this with CAIN and they agree. None of the deceased is listed as having died in a training accident or by any means other than a terrorist attack. At any rate, it would be a pretty poor and pointless cover-up in which the only people deceived were those who logged on to CAIN? Their families knew the circumstances as did their Regimental colleagues and every other soldier in NI at the time of their death as these were "flashed" to all units immediately. No doubt a check in the archives of all usual papers of the day would show them as being reported killed. Basically a load of
nonsense as is the original allegation. Incidenatlly, as far as I can see CAIN only lists people who were killed in Northern Ireland in incidents commected with the conflict so soldiers killed in "Training Accidents" wouldn't be in there anyway.

Catalpa wrote:

remember talking to a guy one night who was from a city in the North who witnessed an incident in which a nail bomb was thrown at some British soldiers and went off right beside one soldier's head - he went down blood everywhere and his mates dragged him off...

- yet when they got the papers the following day there was nare a mention...they reckon he was a dead man anyway after the injuries he sustained.
Hardly proof is it? Some bloke sees a soldier injured and concludes he was killed on no particular evidence, just his own impressions, hence there was a cover -up. I don't think so :roll:
 

Catalpa

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PAUL MEYER said:
Kf said:
A book called, I think, Queen and Country, a frank account of a Brit soldiers life published a few years ago, caused some small controversory as the guy who wrote it, based on his diaries, wrote of the accounts of him losing six of his army mates in north and west belfast in the early 70's. He named them and outline the instances of their deaths, all killed by the IRA.

Turned out that only four of them were listed by CAIN as being killed by IRA, other two according to info supplied by Brit army was they were killed in training accidents. Family were furious as they never knew there was a minor cover up going on and they had recieved letters from the Brit armies COs outlinng their deaths in combat.

Oh it also outlined the random beatings and torture they applied to local nationalist youth. He very much enjoyed that part.
He was from the Green Howards, I've glanced through the book and didn't think much of it as it happens. At any rate, the Green Howards lost a total of 9 men during the troubles according to their entry on the Palace Barracks Memorial Garden. Each of them is named and the date and circumstances of their deaths is given. I've cross-checked this with CAIN and they agree. None of the deceased is listed as having died in a training accident or by any means other than a terrorist attack. At any rate, it would be a pretty poor and pointless cover-up in which the only people deceived were those who logged on to CAIN? Their families knew the circumstances as did their Regimental colleagues and every other soldier in NI at the time of their death as these were "flashed" to all units immediately. No doubt a check in the archives of all usual papers of the day would show them as being reported killed. Basically a load of
nonsense as is the original allegation. Incidenatlly, as far as I can see CAIN only lists people who were killed in Northern Ireland in incidents commected with the conflict so soldiers killed in "Training Accidents" wouldn't be in there anyway.

Catalpa wrote:

remember talking to a guy one night who was from a city in the North who witnessed an incident in which a nail bomb was thrown at some British soldiers and went off right beside one soldier's head - he went down blood everywhere and his mates dragged him off...

- yet when they got the papers the following day there was nare a mention...they reckon he was a dead man anyway after the injuries he sustained.
Hardly proof is it? Some bloke sees a soldier injured and concludes he was killed on no particular evidence, just his own impressions, hence there was a cover -up. I don't think so :roll:
Nevers said it was but a nail bomb going off next to anyones head which floors you and blood is gushing from your head would more than likely kill you - why no mention in the papers then?

Surely something like 'Soldier critically injured in nail bomb attack in City Riot' if no coverup intended would be along the lines of common reportage at the time - but nothing?
 

PAUL MEYER

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Catalpa said:
PAUL MEYER said:
Kf said:
A book called, I think, Queen and Country, a frank account of a Brit soldiers life published a few years ago, caused some small controversory as the guy who wrote it, based on his diaries, wrote of the accounts of him losing six of his army mates in north and west belfast in the early 70's. He named them and outline the instances of their deaths, all killed by the IRA.

Turned out that only four of them were listed by CAIN as being killed by IRA, other two according to info supplied by Brit army was they were killed in training accidents. Family were furious as they never knew there was a minor cover up going on and they had recieved letters from the Brit armies COs outlinng their deaths in combat.

Oh it also outlined the random beatings and torture they applied to local nationalist youth. He very much enjoyed that part.
He was from the Green Howards, I've glanced through the book and didn't think much of it as it happens. At any rate, the Green Howards lost a total of 9 men during the troubles according to their entry on the Palace Barracks Memorial Garden. Each of them is named and the date and circumstances of their deaths is given. I've cross-checked this with CAIN and they agree. None of the deceased is listed as having died in a training accident or by any means other than a terrorist attack. At any rate, it would be a pretty poor and pointless cover-up in which the only people deceived were those who logged on to CAIN? Their families knew the circumstances as did their Regimental colleagues and every other soldier in NI at the time of their death as these were "flashed" to all units immediately. No doubt a check in the archives of all usual papers of the day would show them as being reported killed. Basically a load of
nonsense as is the original allegation. Incidenatlly, as far as I can see CAIN only lists people who were killed in Northern Ireland in incidents commected with the conflict so soldiers killed in "Training Accidents" wouldn't be in there anyway.

Catalpa wrote:

remember talking to a guy one night who was from a city in the North who witnessed an incident in which a nail bomb was thrown at some British soldiers and went off right beside one soldier's head - he went down blood everywhere and his mates dragged him off...

- yet when they got the papers the following day there was nare a mention...they reckon he was a dead man anyway after the injuries he sustained.
Hardly proof is it? Some bloke sees a soldier injured and concludes he was killed on no particular evidence, just his own impressions, hence there was a cover -up. I don't think so :roll:
Nevers said it was but a nail bomb going off next to anyones head which floors you and blood is gushing from your head would more than likely kill you - why no mention in the papers then?

Surely something like 'Soldier critically injured in nail bomb attack in City Riot' if no coverup intended would be along the lines of common reportage at the time - but nothing?
Again, how do you KNOW he was critically injured? Lets face it, this incident, if it ever happened, must have taken place about 30yrs ago (nail bombs were very much an early 70's thing) so memories of it are getting pretty hazy now. If he suffered a head wound then it will almost by definition be a bloody affair, head wounds almost always are, but it doesn't mean he was critically injured, people have been known to be shot through the head and survive after all. Anyway, how on earth would the Army (Or anyone else) go about covering this up given that every man in his unit would know in minutes and the rest of the Army in NI within a very short time indeed. What about his friends and family?(contrary to the widespread belief amongst Irish Republicans, most British soldiers were/are not friendless orphans you know).

This really is getting very silly indeed. All too typical of the type of nonsensical conspiracy theories we read so often on this site I'm afraid.
 

Catalpa

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PAUL MEYER said:
Catalpa said:
[quote="PAUL MEYER":3fv1laaf]
Kf said:
A book called, I think, Queen and Country, a frank account of a Brit soldiers life published a few years ago, caused some small controversory as the guy who wrote it, based on his diaries, wrote of the accounts of him losing six of his army mates in north and west belfast in the early 70's. He named them and outline the instances of their deaths, all killed by the IRA.

Turned out that only four of them were listed by CAIN as being killed by IRA, other two according to info supplied by Brit army was they were killed in training accidents. Family were furious as they never knew there was a minor cover up going on and they had recieved letters from the Brit armies COs outlinng their deaths in combat.

Oh it also outlined the random beatings and torture they applied to local nationalist youth. He very much enjoyed that part.
He was from the Green Howards, I've glanced through the book and didn't think much of it as it happens. At any rate, the Green Howards lost a total of 9 men during the troubles according to their entry on the Palace Barracks Memorial Garden. Each of them is named and the date and circumstances of their deaths is given. I've cross-checked this with CAIN and they agree. None of the deceased is listed as having died in a training accident or by any means other than a terrorist attack. At any rate, it would be a pretty poor and pointless cover-up in which the only people deceived were those who logged on to CAIN? Their families knew the circumstances as did their Regimental colleagues and every other soldier in NI at the time of their death as these were "flashed" to all units immediately. No doubt a check in the archives of all usual papers of the day would show them as being reported killed. Basically a load of
nonsense as is the original allegation. Incidenatlly, as far as I can see CAIN only lists people who were killed in Northern Ireland in incidents commected with the conflict so soldiers killed in "Training Accidents" wouldn't be in there anyway.

Catalpa wrote:

remember talking to a guy one night who was from a city in the North who witnessed an incident in which a nail bomb was thrown at some British soldiers and went off right beside one soldier's head - he went down blood everywhere and his mates dragged him off...

- yet when they got the papers the following day there was nare a mention...they reckon he was a dead man anyway after the injuries he sustained.
Hardly proof is it? Some bloke sees a soldier injured and concludes he was killed on no particular evidence, just his own impressions, hence there was a cover -up. I don't think so :roll:
Nevers said it was but a nail bomb going off next to anyones head which floors you and blood is gushing from your head would more than likely kill you - why no mention in the papers then?

Surely something like 'Soldier critically injured in nail bomb attack in City Riot' if no coverup intended would be along the lines of common reportage at the time - but nothing?
Again, how do you KNOW he was critically injured? Lets face it, this incident, if it ever happened, must have taken place about 30yrs ago (nail bombs were very much an early 70's thing) so memories of it are getting pretty hazy now. If he suffered a head wound then it will almost by definition be a bloody affair, head wounds almost always are, but it doesn't mean he was critically injured, people have been known to be shot through the head and survive after all. Anyway, how on earth would the Army (Or anyone else) go about covering this up given that every man in his unit would know in minutes and the rest of the Army in NI within a very short time indeed. What about his friends and family?(contrary to the widespread belief amongst Irish Republicans, most British soldiers were/are not friendless orphans you know).

This really is getting very silly indeed. All too typical of the type of nonsensical conspiracy theories we read so often on this site I'm afraid.[/quote:3fv1laaf]

It was in the early 1970's I was talking to this man about it. If you were to ask people from the Nationalist Community in the North and who were around at the time and above say 15+ back then I'm sure most could tell you of incidents that the media never reported.

Even the Irish Times (not the most republican of newspapers!) was reporting on this at the time.

TBH I believe a number of British soldiers were killed up there and their deaths covered up...

Obviously though I can't prove that no more than you can prove it otherwise.
 

sid

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Catalpa, i'm sure people think they are telling the truth, but just think about the logistics of it.

600 blokes who live, work and play together, and the majority of whose families will live near each other, all go to NI. while they are there there's an incident - including a fatality - in their patch, the rough details of which areautomaticly flashed not only around the unit, but to every other unit in NI.

exactly how - in a 'little' gang of 600, most with gassing wives, and a 'big' gang of 15,000, also with gassing wives - do you possibly believe that the nature and location of the incident causing the fatality is going to be kept secret?

how odd, with all these 'extra' fatalities going round, that no parents/spouses have gone to the media and said "do you know, its really strange, my son went to a school of infantry course 25 years ago and he still hasn't finished it or managed a weekend off - it must be very hard work"

seems a bit fishy to me....
 

PAUL MEYER

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b]Catalpa wrote:[/b]

It was in the early 1970's I was talking to this man about it. If you were to ask people from the Nationalist Community in the North and who were around at the time and above say 15+ back then I'm sure most could tell you of incidents that the media never reported.

Even the Irish Times (not the most republican of newspapers!) was reporting on this at the time.

TBH I believe a number of British soldiers were killed up there and their deaths covered up...

Obviously though I can't prove that no more than you can prove it otherwise.
Well quite frankly any of us who served in NI during the campaign would be able to give you half a dozen examples of bizarre beliefs held by nationalists/Republicans about the Army, eg:

"There are no Catholics in the British Army"

The letters RC stamped on my ID discs didn't convince him either:,

"youse have had them done just so's youse can pretend" :roll: :roll:

So this doesn't surprise me in the least.

Anyway, just because the papers didn't report something didn't mean the Army/governmenst were covering it up, the Army/Government didn't control every newspaper, magazine, publication and media outlet in the UK you know, never mind the Irish Times. Incidentally, if this cover-up is so well known, how come some Pinko rag like the Guardian, Mirror or Observer never picked up on it? Finally, as Sid says, please tell us HOW it could have been done?
 

Aindriu

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sid said:
Catalpa, i'm sure people think they are telling the truth, but just think about the logistics of it.

600 blokes who live, work and play together, and the majority of whose families will live near each other, all go to NI. while they are there there's an incident - including a fatality - in their patch, the rough details of which areautomaticly flashed not only around the unit, but to every other unit in NI.

exactly how - in a 'little' gang of 600, most with gassing wives, and a 'big' gang of 15,000, also with gassing wives - do you possibly believe that the nature and location of the incident causing the fatality is going to be kept secret?

how odd, with all these 'extra' fatalities going round, that no parents/spouses have gone to the media and said "do you know, its really strange, my son went to a school of infantry course 25 years ago and he still hasn't finished it or managed a weekend off - it must be very hard work"

seems a bit fishy to me....
Well said. Regiments are like extended families. There is absolutely no way that a death would ever be covered up in any way. The idea is totally preposterous. Occasionally deaths of SAS soldiers in other conflicts (where the government did not want their presence to be known - such as Oman) were leaked as being training accidents but the next of kin and the regiment were always told the truth.
 

brenners'

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You misunderstand what is being said, of course their deaths were reported, just not the nature of how they died as admitting the IRA was successful at knocking of Brits at certain times would have had a huge impact politically. And actually it was a common practice and it is still used by the Brits and USA in Iraq today, it is mostly called the vehicle accident. There was an incident in the early 90’s were the army killed 3 soldiers in an unmarked car and it was not even reported in the news despite the car being riddled and bodies being airlifted from the scene, almost a week later a car crash was reported near a base in Germany where 3 soldiers died, it was all part of the propaganda war that the Brits were involved in and it usually involved undercover people whose deaths would cause huge embarrassment to the Brits.
 

meriwether

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brenners' said:
You misunderstand what is being said, of course their deaths were reported, just not the nature of how they died as admitting the IRA was successful at knocking of Brits at certain times would have had a huge impact politically. And actually it was a common practice and it is still used by the Brits and USA in Iraq today, it is mostly called the vehicle accident. There was an incident in the early 90’s were the army killed 3 soldiers in an unmarked car and it was not even reported in the news despite the car being riddled and bodies being airlifted from the scene, almost a week later a car crash was reported near a base in Germany where 3 soldiers died, it was all part of the propaganda war that the Brits were involved in and it usually involved undercover people whose deaths would cause huge embarrassment to the Brits.
Was that allegedly in Tyrone?
A fella told me a story similar to it once.
I heard it was 4 soldiers though.
 

Aindriu

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Brenners, you are talking total rot! The MOD have NEVER misreported a death of a British service man/women. For tactical and security reasons they will sometimes not release the news to the media. That is quite normal. They did the same in WW2 as did every other allied country. The next of kin and the regiment would have known the truth right from the start.

What you and others are expecting on here is for the Brits to announce how wonderfully successful the RA were against the Brits. It isn't ever going to happen so get over it. It was a stalemate with neither side achieving victory. That is due to the restraint shown by the British government as senior MOD officials wanted an all out war scenario and were told to rein themselves back in.
 

Kieran-walsh

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Those people who say, not enough, or not half enough, are absolute low lives, nothing more, nothing less.

Who gives you moral authority to wish an increase of deaths on families, be they in Derry, Dublin and Devon.

Whoever died in conflict, on all sides should be remembered as people too, regardless of your political outlook. ye make me sick, people like you
 

Aindriu

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Kieran-walsh said:
Those people who say, not enough, or not half enough, are absolute low lives, nothing more, nothing less.

Who gives you moral authority to wish an increase of deaths on families, be they in Derry, Dublin and Devon.

Whoever died in conflict, on all sides should be remembered as people too, regardless of your political outlook. ye make me sick, people like you
Well said!! They were all someones son, father, husband, grandson etc.

Contrary to the imaginations of some on this board most soldiers are not pathological killers and baby eaters. The majority of those posted to NI hated going there and were affected by what they saw and what they were told to do. Blame the Governments and the senior officer - not the ordinary soldiers FFS!
 

PAUL MEYER

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brenners said:

You misunderstand what is being said, of course their deaths were reported, just not the nature of how they died as admitting the IRA was successful at knocking of Brits at certain times would have had a huge impact politically.
No, I for one haven't misunderstood what was being said here, the allegation (and widely held belief apparently) is that a number of killings of British soldiers in NI by terrorists were "covered-up" We all know that the PIRA and others were successfull at killing British soldiers but exactly when were these "certain times" which would have had "a huge impact politically" and why incidentally?

And actually it was a common practice and it is still used by the Brits and USA in Iraq today, it is mostly called the vehicle accident.
Well, if it was such a common practice I can only say how embarrassed I am for myself and every soldier I ever met in 24 years of service who never even suspected that our mates were being killed and their demises hushed up in such a way, extraordinary! I trust you're going to enlighten us soon with some facts about this "common practice", you'll have names places, dates etc. etc. I'm sure? Don't forget to give examples from Iraq, and Afghanistan if you have any, I'm sure you must?

There was an incident in the early 90’s were the army killed 3 soldiers in an unmarked car and it was not even reported in the news despite the car being riddled and bodies being airlifted from the scene,
Well this should be easily "checkable", I look forward to you providing us with more details soon. Incidentally, did the IRA claim responsibility for this outrage ? (or by IRA reasoning, a highly successful Military Operation), I'm pretty sure they didn't, there haven't been too many incidents where they killed 3 soldiers, especially in the 90's. I don't remember P. O'Neill squealing about three dead Brits and a cover -up, do you? Since you tell us the bodies were "riddled" then we can assume there were witnesses to the incident or the aftermath, who were they and what did they have to say?

almost a week later a car crash was reported near a base in Germany where 3 soldiers died, it was all part of the propaganda war that the Brits were involved in and it usually involved undercover people whose deaths would cause huge embarrassment to the Brits.
Well that is a co-incidence! So it happened "near a base in Germany" did it? So therefore it was on a public road I presume and so the German civil police would have been involved in investigating the "crash", (the Royal Military Police having no initial jurisdiction to deal with such matters) We can assume then that the first German cops (not to mention the German hospital staff and probably at some point, a Coroner), on the scene managed not to notice the bullet wounds in the ("riddled") bodies or the fact they they'd been dead for some time?

Another thing, how do you think the Brits managed to stage this car-accident on a German road or street? Presumably a large covered lorry capable of carrying a wrecked car and three bodies drove along the street and dropped the car and it's grisly contents off. Pieces of debris were scattered around and elaborate forensic deceptions such as skid marks matching the cars tyre tread, damaged road signage and kerbs walls etc etc put in place to fool the German traffic police. All done incidentally, without any nosy German civilians sticking their beaks in! Of course the deception could not end there, the car itself would have had to be faked to link it to the dead men, not easy given the bureaucracy involved between British Forces Germany (BFG) and the the German authorities. So, having fooled the German police and civil authorities, a British coroner would have to be brought in on the act as any British subject dying abroad has to have a Coroners inquest when the body arrives in the UK, he'd have to say the cause of death was from injuries received in a road traffic accident and not gunshot wounds. Unlikely. Anyway, you're absolutely certain that the three men killed in NI were the same three killed in Germany some days later, how so?

I really can't wait for your reply, in the meantime though I'll be doing some more digging ;)
 

The Lighthouse Keeper

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Shinfestation

It never ceases to amaze me how 'Shinfested' these forums are at times. :roll:

Whats's the purpose of this pointless score keeping exercise?

Any person who joins up for any army knows that death may be an occupational hazard of the job - that's the deal you sign up for - that's the chance you take - you just hope you're one of the lucky b'stards that stays alive!
 

Aindriu

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Re: Shinfestation

The Lighthouse Keeper said:
It never ceases to amaze me how 'Shinfested' these forums are at times. :roll:

Whats's the purpose of this pointless score keeping exercise?

Any person who joins up for any army knows that death may be an occupational hazard of the job - that's the deal you sign up for - that's the chance you take - you just hope you're one of the lucky b'stards that stays alive!
Exactly!!
 


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