How many companies operate in this state but claim not to be subject to our laws?

clearmurk

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With the internet, has come the opportunity for companies to trade into other jurisdictions worldwide. Often, this will be done while claiming that they adhere to the legislation prevailing in their home state, or that of their choosing. Effectively, they seek to ensure that they avoid any national regulation and laws, especially in the areas of consumer protection and data protection. If they are a financial service provider, this may well be done while our Central Bank asserts that “they are regulated for the conduct of business rules”.

How can this be let continue? If a company trades into Ireland, it is subject to our consumer protection laws. Period.
 


Mad as Fish

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The Irish government is the very first suspect on the list.
 

Researchwill

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With the internet, has come the opportunity for companies to trade into other jurisdictions worldwide. Often, this will be done while claiming that they adhere to the legislation prevailing in their home state, or that of their choosing. Effectively, they seek to ensure that they avoid any national regulation and laws, especially in the areas of consumer protection and data protection. If they are a financial service provider, this may well be done while our Central Bank asserts that “they are regulated for the conduct of business rules”.

How can this be let continue? If a company trades into Ireland, it is subject to our consumer protection laws. Period.
Can you give examples, reports etc.
 

Trainwreck

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With the internet, has come the opportunity for companies to trade into other jurisdictions worldwide. Often, this will be done while claiming that they adhere to the legislation prevailing in their home state, or that of their choosing. Effectively, they seek to ensure that they avoid any national regulation and laws, especially in the areas of consumer protection and data protection. If they are a financial service provider, this may well be done while our Central Bank asserts that “they are regulated for the conduct of business rules”.

How can this be let continue? If a company trades into Ireland, it is subject to our consumer protection laws. Period.
You need to be specific. It is the specifics that matter.
 

gleeful

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With the internet, has come the opportunity for companies to trade into other jurisdictions worldwide. Often, this will be done while claiming that they adhere to the legislation prevailing in their home state, or that of their choosing. Effectively, they seek to ensure that they avoid any national regulation and laws, especially in the areas of consumer protection and data protection. If they are a financial service provider, this may well be done while our Central Bank asserts that “they are regulated for the conduct of business rules”.

How can this be let continue? If a company trades into Ireland, it is subject to our consumer protection laws. Period.
I'm not sure this happens. All companies here must abide by EU law in the areas of consumer and data protection - it doesn't matter what they 'claim'. Irish consumer and data protection law is identical to EU rules.
 

clearmurk

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You need to be specific. It is the specifics that matter.
There is a general principle involved.

Ok - Paypal. If you look at their terms and conditions, you will see that they are registered in Luxembourg, but claim to operate subject to UK law, and the UK courts. The Central Bank here asserts that they are regulated for "the conduct of business rules", and therefore are a valid payment processor. How will you enforce your rights if you transact with them here, and have a problem?

I have seen a similar structure with another financial services company recently, too.
 

clearmurk

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I'm not sure this happens. All companies here must abide by EU law in the areas of consumer and data protection - it doesn't matter what they 'claim'. Irish consumer and data protection law is identical to EU rules.
Yes, that is what you might think and expect. Try getting that enforced and see how far you get.
 

Trainwreck

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There is a general principle involved.

Ok - Paypal. If you look at their terms and conditions, you will see that they are registered in Luxembourg, but claim to operate subject to UK law, and the UK courts. The Central Bank here asserts that they are regulated for "the conduct of business rules", and therefore are a valid payment processor. How will you enforce your rights if you transact with them here, and have a problem?

I have seen a similar structure with another financial services company recently, too.
Leaving aside the Brexit issue as you bring the UK into it.

Your rights are stipulated under Paypal's terms and conditions. You agree to those when you sign up. Those are the first stop in deciding what happens when "something goes wrong".

See, this is where things need specifics. Depending on "what goes wrong", events can take different turns from there.
 

clearmurk

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Leaving aside the Brexit issue as you bring the UK into it.

Your rights are stipulated under Paypal's terms and conditions. You agree to those when you sign up. Those are the first stop in deciding what happens when "something goes wrong".

See, this is where things need specifics. Depending on "what goes wrong", events can take different turns from there.
No. The point is that you can't just contract yourself out of consumer protection. Otherwise everyone would be at it, and the law (with its protections) is rendered meaningless.
 

gleeful

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There is a general principle involved.

Ok - Paypal. If you look at their terms and conditions, you will see that they are registered in Luxembourg, but claim to operate subject to UK law, and the UK courts. The Central Bank here asserts that they are regulated for "the conduct of business rules", and therefore are a valid payment processor. How will you enforce your rights if you transact with them here, and have a problem?

I have seen a similar structure with another financial services company recently, too.
If this is a problem, can you explain why?
 

clearmurk

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If this is a problem, can you explain why?
It is a problem, because anyone that wishes to rely as an Irish citizen on the protections provided by Irish law for consumers of services provided in Ireland, are unable to do so without subjecting themselves to the jurisdiction of the UK courts for a service purchased and supposedly regulated in Ireland.
 

Trainwreck

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No. The point is that you can't just contract yourself out of consumer protection. Otherwise everyone would be at it, and the law (with its protections) is rendered meaningless.
For example. Under terms you agree to:
1.1 PayPal is only a Payment Service Provider. PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A. (R.C.S. Luxembourg B 118 349) is duly licensed as a Luxembourg credit institution in the sense of Article 2 of the law of 5 April 1993 on the financial sector as amended (the “Law”) and is under the prudential supervision of the Luxembourg supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier.

They are a Luxembourg credit institution. When you use Paypal, you are sending you money to a Luxembourg company. If you believe the is "a problem" and get no satisfaction from Paypal, your next step is Luxembourg law.


This is why specifics are important. You have chosen to do business overseas. It doesn't matter that you don't have to leave the country physically to do so, it is no different to you going over to Luxembourg, walking into a bank and opening up an account. You can't then go home and try to force Irish law on your new Luxembourg bank.

Paypal are allowed to market in Ireland under EU law that allows free movement of services. In truth, that right applies to you. You are allowed to do business with this Luxembourg company.
 

Trainwreck

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It is a problem, because anyone that wishes to rely as an Irish citizen on the protections provided by Irish law for consumers of services provided in Ireland, are unable to do so without subjecting themselves to the jurisdiction of the UK courts for a service purchased and supposedly regulated in Ireland.
Then don't do business with foreign companies abroad.


Same with buying something from a foreign (non EU, because of pan-EU law) seller. If you chose to import it yourself (meaning you do business there, not here) and "something goes wrong", you can't call on Irish law to protect you.
 

clearmurk

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For example. Under terms you agree to:



They are a Luxembourg credit institution. When you use Paypal, you are sending you money to a Luxembourg company. If you believe the is "a problem" and get no satisfaction from Paypal, your next step is Luxembourg law.


This is why specifics are important. You have chosen to do business overseas. It doesn't matter that you don't have to leave the country physically to do so, it is no different to you going over to Luxembourg, walking into a bank and opening up an account. You can't then go home and try to force Irish law on your new Luxembourg bank.

Paypal are allowed to market in Ireland under EU law that allows free movement of services. In truth, that right applies to you. You are allowed to do business with this Luxembourg company.
You don't get to avoid national law by virtue of being registered somewhere else.

If a German company sold a toy in Ireland that resulted in the death of a child, that company is most certainly subject to Irish consumer protection legislation.

A company such as Paypal is no different just because their product is not physical.
 

EoinMag

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For example. Under terms you agree to:



They are a Luxembourg credit institution. When you use Paypal, you are sending you money to a Luxembourg company. If you believe the is "a problem" and get no satisfaction from Paypal, your next step is Luxembourg law.


This is why specifics are important. You have chosen to do business overseas. It doesn't matter that you don't have to leave the country physically to do so, it is no different to you going over to Luxembourg, walking into a bank and opening up an account. You can't then go home and try to force Irish law on your new Luxembourg bank.

Paypal are allowed to market in Ireland under EU law that allows free movement of services. In truth, that right applies to you. You are allowed to do business with this Luxembourg company.


Can you quote where Irish people can waive their consumer protection please, to my knowledge where someone else has also stated this, they can't stipulate that nonsense.
 

gerhard dengler

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Is the Setanta Insurance debacle a case in point?

(Setanta was regulated by the Central Bank of Malta, but it only operated in Ireland).
 

Trainwreck

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You don't get to avoid national law by virtue of being registered somewhere else.

If a German company sold a toy in Ireland that resulted in the death of a child, that company is most certainly subject to Irish consumer protection legislation.

A company such as Paypal is no different just because their product is not physical.
Because that German company is selling the toy in Ireland. In truth, you might find the first responsible party is the retailer, if they were selling something in Ireland that didn't''t comply with Irish regulations.

If you went to Germany and bought the toy and brought it back to Ireland, you would need to seek redress in Germany.


Did you not read what I wrote? In the internet age, sometimes, it may appear you are doing business in Ireland, but you are actually doing business elsewhere - as much as if you had transported yourself physically to another country.

Your example is like that. You have travelled (virtually) to Luxembourg, along with your money, to do business with Paypal.
 

Trainwreck

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Is the Setanta Insurance debacle a case in point?

(Setanta was regulated by the Central Bank of Malta, but it only operated in Ireland).
Passported under EU law. Cleared by the Central Bank though. Business conducted in Ireland still needs to meet Irish law.

You seem to be getting confused here. There is regulatory clearance to do business (which includes passporting within the EU) and then there is local laws.
 

clearmurk

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Because that German company is selling the toy in Ireland. In truth, you might find the first responsible party is the retailer, if they were selling something in Ireland that didn't''t comply with Irish regulations.

If you went to Germany and bought the toy and brought it back to Ireland, you would need to seek redress in Germany.


Did you not read what I wrote? In the internet age, sometimes, it may appear you are doing business in Ireland, but you are actually doing business elsewhere - as much as if you had transported yourself physically to another country.

Your example is like that. You have travelled (virtually) to Luxembourg, along with your money, to do business with Paypal.
I would have absolutely not travelled to Luxembourg to conduct some imaginary transaction.

I would have been provided a payment service in Ireland, a service that is regulated for such purpose by the Central Bank of Ireland.
 

Trainwreck

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Can you quote where Irish people can waive their consumer protection please, to my knowledge where someone else has also stated this, they can't stipulate that nonsense.
The moment you choose to step outside Ireland - virtually as well as physically. If you want to retail full Irish jurisdiction, only use services in Ireland. Use your local credit institution to move your money around, not a foreign one like Paypal.

And when I say a foreign one, I mean YOU going to THEM. People keep ignoring this crucial distinction. Just because YOU can got to THEM while staring at your computer at home, doesn't mean you are doing business in Ireland. You have left the country. YOU have CHOSEN to leave the country. THAT is how you waive your rights under Irish law.


Go and buy something on holiday in America. Come back to Ireland and then try and sue in the Irish courts.

Good luck
 


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