How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?

Northern Voice

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Found this interesting take on Northern nationalism on Slugger o'Toole:

This time, though, those tensions had eased. There was a realisation and acceptance from many I spoke to that the notion of a united Ireland, while still something of an obscure political ideal in the Republic, is logistically impossible now. It was refreshing to be able to have an honest dialogue without feeling pangs of guilt for not rowing in behind the green agenda.

The logistics of the post-1994 reality have caught up on century-old definitions of nationalism and republicanism. How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?
Full article: “How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?” « Slugger O'Toole

Do people believe that, compared to twenty years ago, there is now a basic acceptance amongst the nationalist community that the constitutional question is settled?
 


Scipio

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The article seems somewhat naive. Political conflict between Orange and Green won't be ending any time soon.

A United Ireland has been "logistically impossible" since 1922 given the way Ulster was carved up.

In the 1950s, there was a realistic chance that Nationalists would, given wider access to education and social services, accept life in the vastly better off Northern Ireland. That chance was shut down by the Unionist government.

Even with the Republic's current economic crisis, all the variables have changed drastically. More importantly a bloody civil war engulfed the state for nearly 30 years. The legacy of that won't be erased overnight, indeed it may (will?) last for generations. As long as NI remains a confessional state - DUP versus Sinn Fein, Orange Order versus Republican etc. - certain school yards will continue to ring out to Republican songs.

If anything, Nationalism/Republicanism was far weaker in the early 1960s than it is today. Were the article written then, and accompanied by political foresight on the part of the government of the time, I would probably have agreed.
 

SlabMurphy

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Found this interesting take on Northern nationalism on Slugger o'Toole:

Full article: “How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?” « Slugger O'Toole

Do people believe that, compared to twenty years ago, there is now a basic acceptance amongst the nationalist community that the constitutional question is settled?
Oh here we go yet again, our orangie friends grasping at straws hoping 'wee Protestant Ulster' will somehow survive :rolleyes:. Another " Death of Irish nationalism thread " :). With SF the third largest Ireland party on a 32 county basis, who are going to do well in the next GE in 2011, better again in probably 2015 and maybe Martin McGuinness the First Minister in the north after the assembly elections - will you lot ever cop on.

It's like back in the Jack Charlton days a few trying to make out that Gaelic games would eventually die out to soccer.
 

Northern Voice

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Oh here we go yet again, our orangie friends grasping at straws hoping 'wee Protestant Ulster' will somehow survive :rolleyes:. Another " Death of Irish nationalism thread " :). With SF the third largest Ireland party on a 32 county basis, who are going to do well in the next GE in 2011, better again in probably 2015 and maybe Martin McGuinness the First Minister in the north after the assembly elections - will you lot ever cop on.

It's like back in the Jack Charlton days a few trying to make out that Gaelic games would eventually die out to soccer.
I wasn't suggesting Irish nationalism is dead because I don't believe it is - I was merely putting forward an interesting observation of Northern Ireland society.
 

st333ve

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They left out Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan during partition as the state would have been over 40% Catholic and a secure long term future for the state seemed unlikely.

Today the partitioned area has exceeded this percentage, yes not all Catholics are openly supportive of removing partition but the lack of people openly supporting this is down to the fact that no draft paper or details of what a new state will look like.
People will choose the status quo over the unknown, but that can change when the time is right.
Who knows, maybe these details could win over some former Unionists.
Polls are pointless until people hold a GFA type document in their hands, read it and know what removing the border will entail.

I could see huge concessions to Unionists and a lower corporation tax to tempt the business leaders.
Any way this is a few decades off now, Nationalists and Republicans have a long term vision.
Where we are now will not matter in circa 20 years when sensible debate about our future replaces idealisms of the past.

I'm glad that kids are moving away from sectarianism, this is vital to unifying the people of Ireland.
A long drawn out process which won't happen for a long time, if it ever can.
 

factual

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They left out Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan during partition as the state would have been over 40% Catholic and a secure long term future for the state seemed unlikely.

Today the partitioned area has exceeded this percentage, yes not all Catholics are openly supportive of removing partition but the lack of people openly supporting this is down to the fact that no draft paper or details of what a new state will look like.
People will choose the status quo over the unknown, but that can change when the time is right.
Who knows, maybe these details could win over some former Unionists.
Polls are pointless until people hold a GFA type document in their hands, read it and know what removing the border will entail.

I could see huge concessions to Unionists and a lower corporation tax to tempt the business leaders.
Any way this is a few decades off now, Nationalists and Republicans have a long term vision.
Where we are now will not matter in circa 20 years when sensible debate about our future replaces idealisms of the past.

I'm glad that kids are moving away from sectarianism, this is vital to unifying the people of Ireland.
A long drawn out process which won't happen for a long time, if it ever can.

Surely the time is now right to take some steps forward on the shared future agenda?
 

Scipio

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They left out Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan during partition as the state would have been over 40% Catholic and a secure long term future for the state seemed unlikely.

Today the partitioned area has exceeded this percentage, yes not all Catholics are openly supportive of removing partition but the lack of people openly supporting this is down to the fact that no draft paper or details of what a new state will look like.
Foresight, despite other major political qualities, was not a gift Carson possessed. If Unionists had to have pushed for Antrim, North Down, North Armagh and East Derry, there would surely be no pushing "national question" remaining. That they didn't ensured the perpetual instability of Northern Ireland and, in the long term, perhaps the end of the state in one form or another.

Any way this is a few decades off now, Nationalists and Republicans have a long term vision.
Where we are now will not matter in circa 20 years when sensible debate about our future replaces idealisms of the past.

I'm glad that kids are moving away from sectarianism, this is vital to unifying the people of Ireland.
A long drawn out process which won't happen for a long time, if it ever can.
Idealism (and extremism) has been alive and well in Ireland for hundreds of years, I can't see it dying out any time soon. I do agree though that a maturing of society (and hopeful reduction in the role of religion in public life) will surely have a constructive effect on the debate between the two sides.

The question of how to pacify Unionist/Loyalist heartlands East of the Bann will remain however. Repartition, frankly, may not be as crazy as it sounds.
 

factual

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Foresight, despite other major political qualities, was not a gift Carson possessed. If Unionists had to have pushed for Antrim, North Down, North Armagh and East Derry, there would surely be no pushing "national question" remaining. That they didn't ensured the perpetual instability of Northern Ireland and, in the long term, perhaps the end of the state in one form or another.



Idealism (and extremism) has been alive and well in Ireland for hundreds of years, I can't see it dying out any time soon. I do agree though that a maturing of society (and hopeful reduction in the role of religion in public life) will surely have a constructive effect on the debate between the two sides.

The question of how to pacify Unionist/Loyalist heartlands East of the Bann will remain however. Repartition, frankly, may not be as crazy as it sounds.
Repartition is not in the GFA. The GFA is what was negotiated and it is too late to bring repartition onto the table now the GFA has been negotiated and ratified.
 

Scipio

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Repartition is not in the GFA. The GFA is what was negotiated and it is too late to bring repartition onto the table now the GFA has been negotiated and ratified.
Nothing in politics is final, as you should well know.
 

Ghost Hunter

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What's so logistically impossible about uniting 2 western European capitalist states?

What a defeatist loser coming out with a line like that.

He's discredited his article where otherwise he had touched on an interesting topic re normalisation etc.

While normalisation is a concern of mine I'm begining to look forward to the next 10 years with a lot more hope.

We have the anniversary of the 1916 rising to look forward to and especially the 100 year anniversary of the foundation of the NI state which I think will reawaken Nationalist/Republican sentiment and will no doubt be marked by disorder and disobedience to the state.

I'd expect the southerners to start sitting up and taking some notice again as soon as things start hotting up again in the north. They've been led by the media to believe that everything is now settled in the 6 counties and many have prob switched off as result.
 

Scipio

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At the same time though mate it would take something really seismic to dislodge the GFA in our lifetimes .
Agreed, but the idea is predicated on a slim majority existing at some point the future wanting to rejoin the South. I don't say it will happen, or even that it's likely to, but at the same time, I wouldn't put repartition out of the question.

Again, had the Boundary Commission done its work properly all those years ago, the original error may have been rectified in large measure and saved us all a lot of violent bother.
 

factual

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What's so logistically impossible about uniting 2 western European capitalist states?

What a defeatist loser coming out with a line like that.

He's discredited his article where otherwise he had touched on an interesting topic re normalisation etc.

While normalisation is a concern of mine I'm begining to look forward to the next 10 years with a lot more hope.

We have the anniversary of the 1916 rising to look forward to and especially the 100 year anniversary of the foundation of the NI state which I think will reawaken Nationalist/Republican sentiment and will no doubt be marked by disorder and disobedience to the state.

I'd expect the southerners to start sitting up and taking some notice again as soon as things start hotting up again in the north. They've been led by the media to believe that everything is now settled in the 6 counties and many have prob switched off as result.
Perhaps a little disobedience but not in a big way however - the GFA is now established and secure. The GFA is the pathway through which politics can work. Repartition etc are not on the radar.
 

physicist

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UI is only a euro away.

:)
Squeezing the Barnett Subsidy to ignore reserved money
Demands for lower corperation tax (which would further squeeze the subsidy, if it weren't legally impossible outside of a United Ireland)
NAMA owning more property there than the Queen
Eirgrid major stakeholders in their electricity.
The de facto death of the NHS as no ringfencing leads to Irish style charges, with education to follow.
Fianna Fail type cuts and charges to come elsewhere

You could be right, why would the UK join though?
 

SlabMurphy

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The question of how to pacify Unionist/Loyalist heartlands East of the Bann will remain however. Repartition, frankly, may not be as crazy as it sounds.
So long as your not the one who has to live with the consequences of it ofcourse but that your vegetating down in the Gombeen republic.

Nothing in politics is final, as you should well know.
Nothing in politics is final ? What would you call the fall of the Brit empire, the Iron curtain etc ?
 

Scipio

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So long as your not the one who has to live with the consequences of it ofcourse but that your vegetating down in the Gombeen republic.
It would appear that you have an inability to distinguish between what someone would like to see happen, and what one believes may happen.
 


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