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How much longer can Micheal Martin last as FF leader?

shiel

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Only in the sense that FG continue giving them issues on which to attack them. The Children's hospital is a prime example - the cost is huge, its the govt's fault but no one say it should be cancelled. Why not let the Dail vote on whether to keep building or stop? put up or shut up.
But the scale of the mistakes made in the pre 2009 period dwarfs what happened since.

Leaving out the 100bn expenditure in 2010 which included banking costs the cost of running the public services increased from less than 20 bn in 1997 to 63 bn in 2009.

A decade later the 2019 estimates are 67 bn.

So there is a huge difference in what happened in the two periods.

Media are not reflecting this but are seeming to me to be allowing the people who bankrupt the country to get away with blaming everyone else for the problems that they themselves caused.
 


wombat

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But the scale of the mistakes made in the pre 2009 period dwarfs what happened since.
......

A decade later the 2019 estimates are 67 bn.
I think the key is in "a decade later". FG are in govt., the media are tired of them, FF are the alternative.
 

redneck

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But the scale of the mistakes made in the pre 2009 period dwarfs what happened since.

Leaving out the 100bn expenditure in 2010 which included banking costs the cost of running the public services increased from less than 20 bn in 1997 to 63 bn in 2009.

A decade later the 2019 estimates are 67 bn.

So there is a huge difference in what happened in the two periods.

Media are not reflecting this but are seeming to me to be allowing the people who bankrupt the country to get away with blaming everyone else for the problems that they themselves caused.
Fianna Fáil backed by Fine Gael, built modern Ireland. In the process mistakes were made and a crash happened.
 

shiel

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I think the key is in "a decade later". FG are in govt., the media are tired of them, FF are the alternative.
Perhaps.

But the Irish media cheer led the government back into power for two decades between 1987 and 2007.

During the latter part of that period they were bankrupting the country.

In fact they would probably still be there more than three decades later if they had not bankrupt the country.
 

wombat

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But the Irish media cheer led the government back into power for two decades between 1987 and 2007.
I returned from living in Canada and for years bored the holes off friends because I could not understand the Irish obsession with home ownership. Eventually I shut up as home owning progressed to owning property. I realised that what I thought was an obsession, is, in fact, the result of blanket advertising in the Irish media. Advertising works, its why companies spend so much on it. The Irish media are terrified of any threat to their main source of revenue which is the Irish model of property speculation. Its why they invented the term "cuckoo funds" to describe foreign property management companies which threaten the "build to flip" model of property speculation. Support for FF is the logical political tactic for those who want the Irish model of property speculation to return.
 

shiel

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I returned from living in Canada and for years bored the holes off friends because I could not understand the Irish obsession with home ownership. Eventually I shut up as home owning progressed to owning property. I realised that what I thought was an obsession, is, in fact, the result of blanket advertising in the Irish media. Advertising works, its why companies spend so much on it. The Irish media are terrified of any threat to their main source of revenue which is the Irish model of property speculation. Its why they invented the term "cuckoo funds" to describe foreign property management companies which threaten the "build to flip" model of property speculation. Support for FF is the logical political tactic for those who want the Irish model of property speculation to return.
But tripling government spending and tripling bank lending in the pre 2009 period did not do much for home ownership since.

In fact it undermined it.

Media support for the people who did that is not in the realm of the sensible.
 

wombat

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Media support for the people who did that is not in the realm of the sensible.
It is if your existence depends on advertising property sales.
 

riker1969

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I think Martin has a reasonable chance of becoming Taoiseach. All he has to do is get five seats ahead.. Put Fg in the position which FF are in. Or cross the divide and go into coalition with Sf. Neither party has a great track record managing the health service or housing but until the left gets its act together it will be either one or the other.
 

shiel

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I think Martin has a reasonable chance of becoming Taoiseach. All he has to do is get five seats ahead.. Put Fg in the position which FF are in. Or cross the divide and go into coalition with Sf. Neither party has a great track record managing the health service or housing but until the left gets its act together it will be either one or the other.
At present we have people complaining that public expenditure is too high and increasing.

At the same time all day everyday we have complaints in our media about problems in housing, hospitals, sewage/water supply etc.

Everyone seems to have forgotten or just ignores the fact that all these problems are much worse because this country suffered a spectacular bankruptcy as a result of the unchallenged reckless decisions of a small number of its own most powerful citizens in the pre-2009 period.

Public expenditure went from 19bn in 1997 to 63bn in 2009.

With the bailout of the banks government expenditure was over 100bn in 2010.

Government income was just over 50 bn in 2010.

Relative to the size of the economy that government deficit was three times worse than Greece which went bust in the same year.

To put that in perspective the present government expenditure figure is 67bn and present government income is much the same.

When we see that unemployment has declined from 16% to 5% in much the same period it has to be said that the recovery over the last decade has been good.

We have to remember that the present day problems in housing health etc are worse because of the collapse in 2009-10.

To listen to some of the same people who bankrupt the country in the pre-2009 period being unchallenged now when they are complaining about the consequences of their own past actions and blaming everyone else is a bit hard to take.
 

ruman

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FG should have either eradicated or absorbed them by this stage.
That was impossible once Labore decided to go into govt with FG. Anyway FFGLab different cheeks of the same ars* really.

Troika did a decent job turning our country around after FF ran it into the ground. FGLab had a once in a generation opportunity to radically reform Irish public services but failed to do so.The capitulation to vested interest groups within the legal and medical professions being the biggest failing.

FG are decent adiministaters but lack the ability or willingess to address the health and housing problems.

Realistically bringing the Troika back or further EU integration is the best long term solution. Until then just vote for whoever steals the least amount of your money in " taxation"
 
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riker1969

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At present we have people complaining that public expenditure is too high and increasing.

At the same time all day everyday we have complaints in our media about problems in housing, hospitals, sewage/water supply etc.

Everyone seems to have forgotten or just ignores the fact that all these problems are much worse because this country suffered a spectacular bankruptcy as a result of the unchallenged reckless decisions of a small number of its own most powerful citizens in the pre-2009 period.

Public expenditure went from 19bn in 1997 to 63bn in 2009.

With the bailout of the banks government expenditure was over 100bn in 2010.

Government income was just over 50 bn in 2010.

Relative to the size of the economy that government deficit was three times worse than Greece which went bust in the same year.

To put that in perspective the present government expenditure figure is 67bn and present government income is much the same.

When we see that unemployment has declined from 16% to 5% in much the same period it has to be said that the recovery over the last decade has been good.

We have to remember that the present day problems in housing health etc are worse because of the collapse in 2009-10.

To listen to some of the same people who bankrupt the country in the pre-2009 period being unchallenged now when they are complaining about the consequences of their own past actions and blaming everyone else is a bit hard to take.
I voted Fianna Fáil only once in 1989 because finally government debt was being tackled and there wasn't an alternative government. However I lost faith in them after they created the HSE and decentralisation shambles. The crash only made me sure they are not to be let govern again for a generation. The trokia were only interested in getting their money. Thus there was no long term planning on housing. Population was still growing during crash but nobody thought to plan for recovery.
I'm inclined to give SF a vote. They talked sense on USC- don't abolish it we need the cash and other matters. They deserve a go.
 


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