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How should a school system deal with Muslims who dont want their kids exposed to music?

silverharp

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Canadian story about Muslims upset that their kids have to do music classes in school. Personally not a fan of the schools bending to this pressure. Music has educational value , its one of the cornerstones of Western culture and if music is offered in a school its a good team builder in the class also normally the parents get to see a concert so enhances the community value of the school. If a non religious family had some gripe about kids doing music I doubt they would be taken too seriously or else just asked to leave the school.
Given that there has been muslims in most westerns countries for decades I assume it didn't bother them before so no reason to bend now and no allowances should be made imo

Mandatory music classes hit a bad note with some Muslim parents - The Globe and Mail



When music class begins this week at Toronto’s Donwood Park elementary school, Mohammad Nouman Dasu will send a family member to collect his three young children. They will go home for an hour rather than sing and play instruments – a mandatory part of the Ontario curriculum he believes violates his Muslim faith.

The Scarborough school and the Toronto District School Board originally had offered an accommodation – suggesting students could just clap their hands in place of playing instruments or listen to acapella versions of O Canada – but not a full exemption from the class.

After a bitter three-year fight, however, Mr. Dasu felt he had no other opton but to bring his kids home.



According to documents ob-tained by The Globe and Mail, some parents insist they cannot allow their children to be in the same room where musical instruments are being played. Mr. Dasu, a Koran teacher who sometimes leads prayers at Scarborough’s Jame Abu Bakr Siddique mosque, says he has led the fight on behalf of parents. He has consulted with national Islamic bodies, and requested a letter from the leader of his mosque.

“We here believe that music is haram [forbidden]. We can neither listen to it, nor can we play a role in it,” said the mosque’s imam, Kasim Ingar.

Conceding that Muslims have to adjust when they send their kids to public school, he suggested that some matters, such as teaching music, are beyond debate.

“We do not compromise with anyone on the clear-cut orders and principles conveyed by the Prophet,” said Mr. Ingar, who also leads the Scarborough Muslim Association.

Within Islam, the question of whether Muslims are banned from music is divisive and nuanced. Similar to questions about whether women should wear veils, there is no consensus on the issue.

But Ontario’s primary-school curriculum is unambiguous on music class: It must be taught, without exception, to all primary-school-aged children. Officials at the TDSB say they can only bend the rules to accommodate religious students, but not exempt them.

The Globe used freedom of information laws to access TDSB e-mails on how the issue evolved at Donwood Park, where it first surfaced in 2013.

The released records redact the names of students for privacy reasons, and very few families appear to have been adamant over pulling children from music classes. Early internal e-mails show administrators wanted to find “some common ground.”
 


Burnout

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I have a life.
Well obviously we should ban music so as they feel more integrated and at one with Irish culture. It will be a quiet Christmas so...no tree, no baubles, no hymns, no iconography.
 

Herr Rommel

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Show them the door.

If they don't like the rules back home you go.
 

Mercurial

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The first question should be whether music is necessary for a sufficiently decent education. If so, then a child can be required to participate on those grounds.

It doesn't seem plausible to me to think that music is necessary. It isn't required in Irish schools, as far as I know, and it seems unreasonable to me to suggest that this means we don't provide our children with a minimally decent education.

If music isn't necessary, then we need grounds to justify compelling a child to participate in an activity, even when it isn't necessary for a minimally decent education, and even when it goes against the wishes of his or her parents.

It isn't obvious what those grounds would be. Perhaps not being exposed to music is one of a range of things which would harm a child's chances of becoming a sufficiently autonomous adult (but perhaps it could be substituted by some other experiences).
 

Mercurial

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Show them the door.

If they don't like the rules back home you go.
They may not have the time or resources for home-schooling, and if music is a required part of the curriculum, that may not avoid the problem.
 

sic transit

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The first question should be whether music is necessary for a sufficiently decent education. If so, then a child can be required to participate on those grounds.

It doesn't seem plausible to me to think that music is necessary. It isn't required in Irish schools, as far as I know, and it seems unreasonable to me to suggest that this means we don't provide our children with a minimally decent education.

If music isn't necessary, then we need grounds to justify compelling a child to participate in an activity, even when it isn't necessary for a minimally decent education, and even when it goes against the wishes of his or her parents.

It isn't obvious what those grounds would be. Perhaps not being exposed to music is one of a range of things which would harm a child's chances of becoming a sufficiently autonomous adult (but perhaps it could be substituted by some other experiences).
Apparently it is part of the curriculum. It is actually a good thing to do, it can be rewarding and is a whole lot of fun. School is about fun too, especially a primary level.

Music
 

silverharp

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The first question should be whether music is necessary for a sufficiently decent education. If so, then a child can be required to participate on those grounds.

It doesn't seem plausible to me to think that music is necessary. It isn't required in Irish schools, as far as I know, and it seems unreasonable to me to suggest that this means we don't provide our children with a minimally decent education.

If music isn't necessary, then we need grounds to justify compelling a child to participate in an activity, even when it isn't necessary for a minimally decent education, and even when it goes against the wishes of his or her parents.

It isn't obvious what those grounds would be.
You cant deconstruct everything. Try telling a Judo teacher that you will learn the moves except you wont fight anyone who wears a blue suit or you will only learn moves where your feet cant leave the floor, you would be asked to leave or you wouldn't be given your belts. The school has a reputation and as we are often told schools aren't supposed to be grind schools and are meant to bring out other qualities. Also a musical education has proven carryover into subjects like maths. From the school's point of view this could carry a cost if they need to supervise kids not in class, maybe the schools should bill the family 40 or 50 bucks an hour if the kid refuses to sit in the class?
 

talkingshop

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The first question should be whether music is necessary for a sufficiently decent education. If so, then a child can be required to participate on those grounds.

It doesn't seem plausible to me to think that music is necessary. It isn't required in Irish schools, as far as I know, and it seems unreasonable to me to suggest that this means we don't provide our children with a minimally decent education.

If music isn't necessary, then we need grounds to justify compelling a child to participate in an activity, even when it isn't necessary for a minimally decent education, and even when it goes against the wishes of his or her parents.

It isn't obvious what those grounds would be. Perhaps not being exposed to music is one of a range of things which would harm a child's chances of becoming a sufficiently autonomous adult (but perhaps it could be substituted by some other experiences).
If music is part of the curriculum devised by the DES, or whatever body they have set up, presumably comprised of educational experts, to devise the curriculum, then of course Muslim kids should do Music, as following the curriculum is a condition of being a state recognised and funded school.
 

sic transit

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Is it required?

(If so - cool. It wasn't when I was in school, unfortunately)
Seems so. In my day it was very ad hoc and apart from loudly screeching out of tune, quite limited,
 

eoinmcneil

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Canadian story about Muslims upset that their kids have to do music classes in school. Personally not a fan of the schools bending to this pressure. Music has educational value , its one of the cornerstones of Western culture and if music is offered in a school its a good team builder in the class also normally the parents get to see a concert so enhances the community value of the school. If a non religious family had some gripe about kids doing music I doubt they would be taken too seriously or else just asked to leave the school.
Given that there has been muslims in most westerns countries for decades I assume it didn't bother them before so no reason to bend now and no allowances should be made imo

Mandatory music classes hit a bad note with some Muslim parents - The Globe and Mail
You are correct, it doesn't bother the vast majority of Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idol_(2015_film) [ just as one of any number of examples]

There will be the odd crank of course. Should be treated in same way we treat other religious cranks.
 

mr_anderson

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I went to school with Muslims.
They were in my class.
Great people whom I am happy to call friends.
Oddly enough, there was no issue with regards to any of this stuff back then.

Although, there weren't many of them in Ireland in the 80's.

I suspect Canada was similar at that same time.

Wonder what has changed ?
 

Mercurial

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If music is part of the curriculum devised by the DES, or whatever body they have set up, presumably comprised of educational experts, to devise the curriculum, then of course Muslim kids should do Music, as following the curriculum is a condition of being a state recognised and funded school.
That just begs the question though - when devising a curriculum, those in charge should take into account whether the curriculum is suitable for people with particular religious viewpoints.
 

Mercurial

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I went to school with Muslims.
They were in my class.
Great people whom I am happy to call friends.
Oddly enough, there was no issue with regards to any of this stuff back then.

Although, there weren't many of them in Ireland in the 80's.

I suspect Canada was similar at that same time.

Wonder what has changed ?
The vast majority of Muslims still don't have any issues with music.
 

eoinmcneil

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I went to school with Muslims.
They were in my class.
Great people whom I am happy to call friends.
Oddly enough, there was no issue with regards to any of this stuff back then.

Although, there weren't many of them in Ireland in the 80's.

I suspect Canada was similar at that same time.

Wonder what has changed ?
overindulgence of the cranks in that religion by those without the wit to distinguish between a mainstream belief and a crank.
 

silverharp

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Jan 21, 2015
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I went to school with Muslims.
They were in my class.
Great people whom I am happy to call friends.
Oddly enough, there was no issue with regards to any of this stuff back then.

Although, there weren't many of them in Ireland in the 80's.

I suspect Canada was similar at that same time.

Wonder what has changed ?
I'd imagine more extremism and conservatism or muslims coming from different areas than in the past.
 

talkingshop

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That just begs the question though - when devising a curriculum, those in charge should take into account whether the curriculum is suitable for people with particular religious viewpoints.
I presume curricula are developed on the basis of the knowledge of experts as to what is necessary to develop the skills etc. of the child, i.e. they are developed on scientific grounds, not political grounds.
 

silverharp

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The vast majority of Muslims still don't have any issues with music.
their beliefs do, whether individuals choose to ignore it or not is a different issue

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of Ignorance.” [Abu Dawud]

The evidence against musical instruments, in particular wind and string instruments, is irrefutable. There are many sahih ahadith forbidding the use of musical instruments. The Sunni schools of fiqh all prohibit wind instruments (e.g. flutes, trumpets) and string instruments (e.g. violins, guitars) categorically, while they differ in their ruling on percussion instruments (e.g. drums). “The Islamic Ruling On Music And Singing In Light Of The Quraan, The Sunnah, And The Consensus Of Our Pious Predecessors,” by Abu Bilal Mustafa Al-Kanadi, is a detailed discourse on this topic.

The ‘duff’ (tambourine), a percussion instrument, is allowed as an exception to the general prohibition on musical instruments. This is proved by numerous instances of Rasul Allah’s taqriri Sunnah (i.e. he saw its use but did not forbid it.) The duff, accompanied by song, was used in the Prophet’s time on special occasions and weddings, but not as a general pastime.

A hadith narrated by Imam Bukhari, on the prohibition of musical instruments is: “From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk (by men), the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful…. Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.” [Authentic nature of this hadith discussed in the Commentary on Sahih ul-Bukhari, entitled Fat-hul Baari by Ibn Hajar, vol. 10, p.51]

Singing is not forbidden, provided that the content is appropriate. However, singing to the accompaniment of musical instruments becomes forbidden because of the haraam (forbidden) element of music. We see a large part of the Ummah being deceived about life and morality, wasting the precious little time they have of this life, while engrossed in musical ‘entertainment’.

The obsession with music has become as common as the air we breathe. The seriousness of this sin can be judged by the following hadith of Prophet Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam), on the authority of Anas (radi Allahu anhu): “On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress.” [Ibn Asakir in Tareekha]

Source: dailyHadith.com
 


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