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How the left betray the poor


SilverSpurs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
5,550
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
 

Roll_On

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Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
17,905
1. Ireland is a comparatively low tax economy
2. If those state services weren't there, I wouldn't be here.
3. Would you rather the poor died?
4. agreed
5. Universal education exists in Ireland today, I have benefited from it, greatly.
6. The poor have the ability to make their own decisions, and don't need the state to nanny them
7. agreed
8. Hmm, I would say we should adopt an australia style immigration system, i.e. qualified people only.
 

Xipe Totec

Active member
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
122
How The Right helps the poor:

1- Cut all taxes
2- ???*
3- Profit

All in all, The Right is a land of contrasts

Xipe Totec
Ranganna 6, St Scutters NS
(Aged 11 1/2)


* feudalism or something intelligent like that
 

farnaby

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
1,966
Disagree with most of the OP. But believe the left is as guilty as the right in carving out a section of society called 'the poor' for permanent differential treatment. The right treat this section as a potential danger, to be policed and kept in line. The left treat it as an unfortunate pet, to be comforted materially and consoled with false promise of a more equal future. Both manage to leave those they identify as poor barely better off than their ancestors.
 

darkhorse

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
18,210
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
True
The left are weak on crime, drugs, public service, immigration and social welfare abuse
I sincerely hope that future generations can see through their shallow nature
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Worst thread of the week

Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
1. Depends on how the tax system is organised.
2. Are you suggesting we privatise public services because that would certainly betray the poor.
3. No it creates a health system that is not-for-profit.
4. Agreed
5. Explain please.
6. Nonsense. Whose the authoritarian here? I suppose you think it better that the state spend billions fighting a losing battle?
7. Nonsense. But just in case I'm wrong provide evidence to show this.
8. Depends on the type of immigration I suppose. Every modern economy needs certain numbers of immigrants. I would agree though that uncontrolled immigration is bad.


As for the nonsense bit at the end. Where have right-wing policies left us? Utterly failed financially with a divided society but you attack the left who last time were in government left the economy in a stable, healthy position?
 

TonyBird

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
2,243
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
Interesting points . I dont see how they are automatically 'leftist' flaws . For instance lots of 'right wingers' are in favour of cannabis decriminalization ie Ron Paul . Anyway my main question is do you accept the various NWO conspiracy theories ? ie Fake left/right systems to distract people from real issues ? Sounds to me like you do . Which is not a bad thing . You just need to listen to more Alex Jones , to get the complete picture . ie its not just 'the left' that is dodgy and 'agenda driven'
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
You missed out the most important one: by not calling for the nationalisation of the land and vital industries, the "left" condemn the great majority to perpetual wage-slavery.
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343

DuineEile

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
14,939
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.


What left wing policies?

We have never had a left wing Govt. Name me a left wing Taoiseach!

We have become indoctrinated so that even when it is obvious that right wing, free market, light touch regulation policies have destroyed this country (and how!), the right wing mindset cannot accept that it didn't work.

The theory is great, but human greed always turns it to boom and bust.

We are a little like the US, where the "fiscally responsible" Republicans always manage to destroy the US trade balance and the "irresponsible socialists" Democrats always have to sort it out.

D
 

Panopticon

Well-known member
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
5,576
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
A much simpler condemnation is that they slow down economic growth, which would solve almost all the problems that you mention.

Europe's dirty little secret: Almost all the 20th century technology that underpins our daily lives was developed by either American private enterprise or the American government.
 

A Time for Every Purpose

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
391
Disagree with most of the OP. But believe the left is as guilty as the right in carving out a section of society called 'the poor' for permanent differential treatment. The right treat this section as a potential danger, to be policed and kept in line. The left treat it as an unfortunate pet, to be comforted materially and consoled with false promise of a more equal future. Both manage to leave those they identify as poor barely better off than their ancestors.
'Poor' is as much a state of mind as physical.
You are not poor if you have good health and avoid what causes it.
Bad diet ,smoking too,too much alcohol.

If you create an optimistic 'the bottle is half Full' attitude.

Get together with others to help each other,exchanging talents.

Are curious and read the books etc which 'elevate' the heart and mind,and are available 'free' everywhere.

Stop the if 'they ' have it I must too ,or I am deprived attitude.

Get involved in local ,and then National politics,when you are feeling more confident ,after doing all those things.

A bit of thankfulness goes along way 'up there' too, and brings more ,at least that is my personal experience

And if you are 'rich ' in money but poor in mind you do not live longer on the whole than thsoewho have'enough'.
 

lotus1

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
28
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
The ordinary voter doesnt care about left wing or right wing policies any more. They vote for parties whose policies suit them the best ie. if youre on the dole you will vote for a party that wont cut social welfare or mess with universal healthcare, if you are employed you will vote for any party with favourable taxation policies. Its called self preservation ! Its natural human instinct !

The problem is that as the number of unemployed and poor increases so will the vote for parties with so called "left wing " policies which you alluded to. If they dont adhere to their agenda they will be voted out ! simple as...
While this is the democratic process I agree with your analysis !
 

an innocent abroad

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Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
27,685
aah folks, there is no left or right wing parties in this country. there are politicans with different clubs, but they all the same. FFrs had their pals in the banks and builders, labour had social partnership, and they all as greedy and parasitic as each other, the one thing they all have in common is, fear of the voters!
 

selkies

Active member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
198
Website
www.politicswiki.ie
aah folks, there is no left or right wing parties in this country. there are politicans with different clubs, but they all the same. FFrs had their pals in the banks and builders, labour had social partnership, and they all as greedy and parasitic as each other, the one thing they all have in common is, fear of the voters!
What a load of nonsense. Back it up.
Back up your claim that every politician or even every political grouping is corrupt?
You and those like you contribute to the apathy of the electorate and are damaging democracy in this country.
 

selkies

Active member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
198
Website
www.politicswiki.ie
'Poor' is as much a state of mind as physical.
You are not poor if you have good health and avoid what causes it.
Bad diet ,smoking too,too much alcohol.

If you create an optimistic 'the bottle is half Full' attitude.

Get together with others to help each other,exchanging talents.

Are curious and read the books etc which 'elevate' the heart and mind,and are available 'free' everywhere.

Stop the if 'they ' have it I must too ,or I am deprived attitude.

Get involved in local ,and then National politics,when you are feeling more confident ,after doing all those things.

A bit of thankfulness goes along way 'up there' too, and brings more ,at least that is my personal experience

And if you are 'rich ' in money but poor in mind you do not live longer on the whole than thsoewho have'enough'.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfAxjo]YouTube - Pulp -- Common People[/ame]
 

j26

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Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
715
A lot of nonsense there, but I do feel that many on the left forget the second part of Marx's maxim - "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability", and have focused on the rights of people within society, at the expense of the corresponding duty.
 

selkies

Active member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
198
Website
www.politicswiki.ie
Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.
Taxation also pays for roads, the armed forces, the gardai, public servants from the street sweepers to the health inspectors and many other important aspects of any civilised society.
Taxation is not an end goal in itself, so while I'd like to address every point you raised, I'll only be directly rebutting lowering taxation as a failing of the left in terms of the spending cuts you suggest.

2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.
Public Services? you mean like the Police? I thought you meant social welfare at first but that's mentioned down below.

3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.
Do you have stats for this?
Also what would suggest should happen when someone who can't afford it needs a heart transplant? Should they die because they can't afford it?

4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.
How would you determine what the unemployment benefit should be?

5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.
Name a socialist country that doesn't have free education

6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.
Decriminalisation of Cannabis is a complex issue.
1. Taking the money out of the hands of the guy who also sells heroin
2. Preventing people from getting to know the guy who sells heroin
3. You are far far less likely to be violent or any other crime on Cannabis than on alcohol
4. Less health risks than alcohol
are some of the benefits.
Personally I don't want to become a stoner and tend to avoid them where ever possible but at the same time I don't think it's something the government should decide for people.

7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.
Yes because sending more people to prison for longer terms has really improved the problem thus far.
How about treating a complex issue like a complex issue.

8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
Yeah the left generally say things like "Why are you kicking that family out of the country when they have been living here for 8 years" or "Why are you taking 2 years to process that man's work residency, he is begging for a job and he is a qualified doctor".

No one aside from anarchists want an open border but it's time our immigration policy made some sense.
 

selkies

Active member
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Oct 25, 2010
Messages
198
Website
www.politicswiki.ie
A lot of nonsense there, but I do feel that many on the left forget the second part of Marx's maxim - "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability", and have focused on the rights of people within society, at the expense of the corresponding duty.
Not every person who is economically on the left is in favour of civil liberties, nor are they all supporters of Marxism, in fact some of them rather passionately oppose his ideas, most oppose the interpretation made by Stalin and the countries that followed his example.

But while we are on the subject would you like to give me an example of a duty that the left have forgotten about that the right have remembered?
 

Conchubhairb

Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
34
Fact vs Fiction

Leftist policies keep the poor poor by consolidating the cycle of poverty with only a few creature comforts in return.
1- High taxation: creates a disincentive to ambition, enterprise and vision.

2- Public services: creates a dependence on the state for essentials instead of getting the poor onto their own two feet.

3- Universal healthcare: creates a ‘sicknote’ culture amongst the poor.

4- Generous social welfare: creates a dependence on the state and a disincentive to work.

5- Education: The left never argue for universal education which would be a great leveller and create real opportunities for the poor to advance economically.

6- Cannabis: It’s called dope for a reason, how many leftists argue for legalised cannabis that will keep the poor suitably doped.

7- Soft on crime: criminal and anti-social activity devastates communities, a severe line on crime is needed to relieve communities.

8- Immigration: Affects pay and leads to job displacement aswell as stretching public services.
All in all leftist policies are designed to prevent the poor breaking out of the cycle of poverty. Instead they create a permanent underclass unable to stand on their own two feet.
Your argument assumes equal opportunity. Once you pragmatically accept that there is not equal opportunity, and idealistically accept the concept that there should be equal opportunity, then you are a leftie.

Markets are not perfect allocators of resources, because they have flaws - and it is the role of a Government to overcome those flaws. A rightie believes markets have few or no flaws, a leftie recognises that markets do not efficiently provide public goods (such as infrastructure, health, education, environmental protection, and crime prevention), and therefore needs to raise taxation from society to cover the costs of that provision.

1. In a society where every citizen contributes 40% of their earnings to the common good, there is exactly the same relative advantage to be gained by getting wealthy, therefore equal potential for enterprise, ambition and vision. The Harvard Graduate Salary paradox serves as evidence for this.

2. Realistically, occasionally has that side effect - however the overwhelming effect is to act as a safety net for those less fortunate.

3. The alternative is a system where the wealthy are treated first, at some point resulting in deaths for those who can't afford it. That is unjust.

4. Depends on your definition of generous - on a PPP basis, provided social welfare covers the minimum required to keep someone above the poverty line, but below the level at which they would otherwise be employed, any such distortion should be minimised.

5. Universal education is widely advocated by the left (in fact I believe it's one of Lab's policies).

6. Cannabis - ?? Bit random - not at the core of any left advocacy I've ever seen.

7. The creation of communities rather than the neoliberal economic focus on the individual is at the core of leftist philosophy. Being "soft on crime" is definitely not in agreement with that - again a bit random.

8. Immigration: back to the belief in equality of all humans. In any case, your argument doesn't stand up - massive eastern European immigration provided the labour force that fuelled much of the construction boom, massively adding rather than detracting from national income.

Leftist policies are designed to break the cycle of poverty, not the contrary. No-one to the left is advocating a centrally planned economy - rather a counterbalance to the extreme of the free market economy we've been subjected to for the past few decades. The philosphy of the right on the other hand is based on a rising tide lifting all boats, but inherent in that will be at best (increasing) stratification of society, at worst the type of cataclysmic market collapse, a hint of which the global economy has seen in recent years.
 
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