How we should stand down the International Financial Buccaneers, call them to heel.

Socratus O' Pericles

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Just doing a guy a favour-- we have no chance of success tho' imho as it was put more eloquently than I ever could:
"I used to think that if there was reincarnation, I wanted to come back as the President or the Pope or as a .400 baseball hitter, but now I would like to come back as the bond market. You can intimidate everybody."
James Carville (1944–), US political consultant
We have got to make an attempt to warn all the people of the world

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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Malone
MPB, Tonic, morning to you both!

I feel I'm stepping into a long running family argument here. I shall tread cautiously.

I am not any kind of expert on Irish affairs. All I do is look at the underlying mathematics of it. And I cannot see how Irish GDP, and any, even semi-realistic, estimate of growth can possibly result in Ireland being able to pay off the debts it has taken on for the purpose of keeping its banks and their bond holders from taking their own losses. It's as simply as that.

Arguments about the morality or realpolitik of defauting on bonds are a secondary argument. I personally feel Ireland can and should restruture and inform the senior bond holders what loss they can expect. Other nations have done it. They are still with us. Not to mention the fact that without the costs of saving the moribund banks Ireland wouldn't be facing anything like the huge amounts she is facing. Ireland would probably be able to get alonf without bond market borrowing IF it were not for the cost of the bank bail out.

In fact without those vast costs Ireland could proabably fund its own debt internally. Using the pension money. NOT something they should do when bailing our the banks. Japan made that mistake and will die because of it. But to fund a debt NBOT including bank bail outs is another matter I think. Just my opinion.

At the very least such a move to restrucutre would force major concessions from the ECB. Basically my position is this, there are people and institutions for whom saving Ireland financial system is VERY important. Far more important than it is for the Irish people themselves.

What is happening, in my opinion, is that those for whom it is very important indeed, are using the Irish people, with the help and collusion of the Irish political class. The Irish people have been told they are doing this to save themesleves. I think this is not true.

Ireland cannot save its way our of this pit of debt. I think people like Sutherland know this. I think they also know they need time. And THAT, is what the Irish people's suffering is buying them. Just time.

Ireland is a different case to Greece. Greece is big enough to be a real problem if it fell over. Ireland is one of the two major centres of European securitization. Ireland and Lux are where a huge number of the SIV's for the securities are housed. The work was done in London, the vehicles housed in Ireland. It is a nexus of dirty laundry which runs globally. I don't think the bankers want to think about what would happen if the system fell over, and its guts spilled out for all to see. And that is why the Irish are being told they MUST bow down and do as they are told.

That as much as anything is what is being protected here.

As I say I am not any kind of expert. I just read a lot and try to think clearly about what I've read.

I have read your previous submissions. Yes! It is possible that the dollar crisis will make any Euro bonds attractive. But the important thing now is for us to hold our heads.

This whole world financial fiasco is out of control. The likes of Sutherland, Bruton and bought politicians are living in a bubble of grandeur, with their big fat salaries. They have been in another world for the past ten years. People have been shouting cries of warning; the only means of persuasion not taken up was an Armalite; sadly it, or physical/financial explosions are the only time that they are jolted into action They just have not a clue of the way things are with the Irish Banking system. This bubble that they occupy has being impregnable for the past ten years; they are like people on drugs; it is impossible to get through to them.

There has being no international control of the International Financial Buccaneers. Maverick bankers are all over the place; creating havoc wherever they go. They are bankers in name; but the modern knowledgeable lot and their professional accomplices with their sophisticated weapons of mass destruction are plain honest to goodness crooks in pin stripped suits. The destruction they cause is beyond anything that Bin Laden and his gang could ever dream off.

I mentioned yesterday in another thread that CDS will bring Ireland down.
Quote:
YES. CDSs allow financiers that know nothing about how banking and finance needs to work to aid productive enterprises, make lots of money when productive enterprises go belly-up. It is amazing that this situation is allowed to continue. Ireland's CDS Curve Inverts

These guys are out for mass destruction; and they stand to gain a multiple of times the issue value of outstanding Irish Bonds plus further profits if the contagion effect clicks in. This is the real scenario. Ireland is now just a pawn in the International Financial Buccaneers hoped for Anarchic Global Financial melt-down. It is an attempt to get rich by subterfuge rather than getting rich from advising and providing capital to third parties in the production of goods and services that are of benefit to society; as is the wont of finance people!


These guys have got to be stood up to. You are a very educated lot on this forum, with tons of financial acumen, insight. We should not take this lying down.

I would suggest that someone opens a thread (I have not this facility) on how we should stand down the International Financial Buccaneers, call them to heel. Then when we have debated ways of doing this; we should bombard every financial blog site on Earth with the results of our deliberations. It is time for action! We have got to make an attempt to warn all the people of the world; get them to wake up, because if there is one thing for sure that we Irish should have learned is; that by doing nothing, those people will be next for gutting!
 


feargach

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These guys are Shylocks.

The excuse they used with Greece was "but we have to charge higher rates because of the risk of default".

So the EU created the rescue fund with the IMF. Instantly wiping out any possibility of default.

But they`re still milking Ireland, even though the default risk is gone. They`re simple loan sharks. If a credit union did that to a member, the manager would be arrested.

They`re extortionists. People who are caught doing this to individuals are put behind bars, but for some weird reason it`s legal to do it on the state level, even though the behaviour is exactly the same. That needs to change. Why should an intra-national loan shark risk jail when his international colleagues get to do the exact same thing in perfect freedom.

If loan sharking is a good thing, it should be legalised entirely. If it`s not, we should close the loophole that allows loan sharks to operate in the sovereign bond market.
 
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Socratus O' Pericles

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These guys are Shylocks.

The excuse they used with Greece was "but we have to charge higher rates because of the risk of default".

So the EU created the rescue fund with the IMF. Instantly wiping out any possibility of default.

But they`re still milking Ireland, even though the default risk is gone. They`re simple loan sharks. If a credit union did that to a member, the manager would be arrested.
Agreed but they are untouchable they have control of the most important of all levers and that is all that matters.
 

MPB

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These guys are Shylocks.

The excuse they used with Greece was "but we have to charge higher rates because of the risk of default".

So the EU created the rescue fund with the IMF. Instantly wiping out any possibility of default.

But they`re still milking Ireland, even though the default risk is gone. They`re simple loan sharks. If a credit union did that to a member, the manager would be arrested.
All the more reason to burn them.

Our bond rate is nearly 8%.

The EU/IMF have a fund and are ready to lend to us at 5%, yet our cretins in Govt keep telling us that we cannot burn the senior debt holders in Private Banks because they will refuse to buy sovereign bonds.

Duh... anybody notice the stupidity of this.
 

Watcher2

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These guys are Shylocks.

The excuse they used with Greece was "but we have to charge higher rates because of the risk of default".

So the EU created the rescue fund with the IMF. Instantly wiping out any possibility of default.

But they`re still milking Ireland, even though the default risk is gone. They`re simple loan sharks. If a credit union did that to a member, the manager would be arrested.

They`re extortionists. People who are caught doing this to individuals are put behind bars, but for some weird reason it`s legal to do it on the state level, even though the behaviour is exactly the same. That needs to change. Why should an intra-national loan shark risk jail when his international colleagues get to do the exact same thing in perfect freedom.

If loan sharking is a good thing, it should be legalised entirely. If it`s not, we should close the loophole that allows loan sharks to operate in the sovereign bond market.
No they are not. Extortion is legalised in this country. Loan sharks are allowed charge rates of up to 184/7% in this country. It is true.
 

WTTR

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No they are not. Extortion is legalised in this country. Loan sharks are allowed charge rates of up to 184/7% in this country. It is true.
Wow! If you want a no holes barred report on how Ireland continuous to be ripped off by unscrupulous financiers; just listen! This is even before David McWilliams shows up in the second half. It sure is riveting listening; but sad in a way that we appear to the world that we have weak political leaders. It mentions about people in debt being brought in front of false courts with false judges etc and extends this theme to explain what is happening in Ireland.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBbgVZz7_YM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Keiser Report[/ame]

It lays before us very well explained reasons why the Irish Citizen should not be bailing out Anglo Irish Bank. We did not even get a chance to defend ourselves. Sadly, it is just the way that politicians of all parties had dealings with the International Financiers over the past ten years; the ordinary citizen was never asked or notified until the sh.t hit the fan about arrangements and laws introduced to suit the International Financial Buccaneers. The IFB ran rings round the Irish banking/politico establishment.
 

MPB

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Wow! If you want a no holes barred report on how Ireland continuous to be ripped off by unscrupulous financiers; just listen! This is even before David McWilliams shows up in the second half. It sure is riveting listening; but sad in a way that we appear to the world that we have weak political leaders. It mentions about people in debt being brought in front of false courts with false judges etc and extends this theme to explain what is happening in Ireland.
YouTube - Keiser Report

It lays before us very well explained reasons why the Irish Citizen should not be bailing out Anglo Irish Bank. We did not even get a chance to defend ourselves. Sadly, it is just the way that politicians of all parties had dealings with the International Financiers over the past ten years; the ordinary citizen was never asked or notified until the sh.t hit the fan about arrangements and laws introduced to suit the International Financial Buccaneers. The IFB ran rings round the Irish banking/politico establishment.
Unfortunately we do not have enough Max Keisers, although it is good to see the Irish being a little more exposed to Max and Gerald Celente.

Maybe there is hope after all.
 

Panopticon

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But they`re still milking Ireland, even though the default risk is gone.
Factually incorrect. The default risk for Ireland is well over 0%.

They`re simple loan sharks. If a credit union did that to a member, the manager would be arrested.

They`re extortionists. People who are caught doing this to individuals are put behind bars, but for some weird reason it`s legal to do it on the state level, even though the behaviour is exactly the same.
Incorrect. 8% interest is not loan shark territory (think more like 2000%). Rates above 8% are quite common on medium-risk instruments like credit cards. Also, the government can freely choose to not borrow money if it wants. It prefers to run a deficit, but that is not an inevitability, it is a choice.

That needs to change. Why should an intra-national loan shark risk jail when his international colleagues get to do the exact same thing in perfect freedom.

If loan sharking is a good thing, it should be legalised entirely. If it`s not, we should close the loophole that allows loan sharks to operate in the sovereign bond market.
Indeed.
 

meriwether

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Can anyone please point me towards a link where these interantional buccanneers forced their money on us?

Did someone force us to go to the market and borrow?

If so, why have we stepped out of the bond market until March 2011?

You people are idiots. You are idiotic, not because I am on the side of the international investor, but because I am on the side of identifying correctly why we have a problem.

The reason we are in a mess is not because we are being charged high interest rates.

We are in a mess, and because of this we are being charged high interest rates.
So, lets identify the problem, fix it, and then we will have lower borrowing rates.
 

Iarmuid

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Can anyone please point me towards a link where these interantional buccanneers forced their money on us?

Did someone force us to go to the market and borrow?

If so, why have we stepped out of the bond market until March 2011?

You people are idiots. You are idiotic, not because I am on the side of the international investor, but because I am on the side of identifying correctly why we have a problem.

The reason we are in a mess is not because we are being charged high interest rates.

We are in a mess, and because of this we are being charged high interest rates.
So, lets identify the problem, fix it, and then we will have lower borrowing rates.
Do you know what usury is? do you recognise this eq. P= (1+1/n)^n, when n goes to infinity P=?, or its implications in the context of usury, if not, imo you have no means of recognising the problem.
 
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WTTR

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This would have been a noble state of affairs

Can anyone please point me towards a link where these interantional buccanneers forced their money on us?

Did someone force us to go to the market and borrow?

If so, why have we stepped out of the bond market until March 2011?

You people are idiots. You are idiotic, not because I am on the side of the international investor, but because I am on the side of identifying correctly why we have a problem.

The reason we are in a mess is not because we are being charged high interest rates.

We are in a mess, and because of this we are being charged high interest rates.
So, lets identify the problem, fix it, and then we will have lower borrowing rates.
The guys in the IFSC were making huge money out of international securitisation of mortgages etc. In 2004 they were made aware of a Directive in Financial Affairs that was being introduced in the European Parliament. They were not pleased because certain restrictions were going to be imposed on mortgages that were to be securitised using European funds e.g. fairly strict guideline on loan to value of property etc. They mobilised the property loving Irish politicians, canvassed them and performed approaches that would be fitting to getting things changed with this European Capital Directive. The sweetener for our politicians was that if the restrictive clauses were eliminated that employment in the IFSC would be exponentially increased.
The European Commission’s Capital Requirements Directive (CRD) Original restrictions. The following restrictions did not suit the Irish Mortgage Financiers.

“• less ability to incorporate a broad range of international (non-EU) assets in a pool, favouring markets which have a large availability of domestic assets;

• lower limits applying to the substitution of assets within a pool, thereby reducing operational flexibility. Assets need to be replaced from time to time as the loans are repaid.

• stricter rules on the valuation levels applying to residential mortgages whereby only loans of a lower loan-to-value (LTV) level could be included in the pool of assets..”

To influence the European agenda, it is important to have a European position. In Ireland a national position was developed through dialogue between the industry, the Department of Finance and the Financial Regulator.

The outcome ultimately proved positive, persuading the Commission and the Council that the restrictive measures were unnecessary. The Council agreement negotiated under the Luxembourg Presidency at the end of June 2005 represented a good outcome.
The consideration by Parliament proved to be equally challenging, as new proposals surfaced including one to remove the full eligibility of EU assets. EU Member States are governed by common treaty and rules on financial stability and it is accepted that EU assets carry less risk than non-EU assets.

Further restrictions to international asset eligibility were proposed along with other measures that would have impacted negatively on the ability of Ireland and others to compete successfully in the European marketplace.

Within the European Parliament, both Gay Mitchell TD, MEP and Eoin Ryan TD, MEP used their positions as members of the European Committee on Economic Affairs (ECON) to alter the course of the debate and restore the key measures required by Ireland, Luxembourg, France, UK and others. Gay Mitchell led the campaign within the EPP political grouping, the largest in Parliament, to win the support of members for the Irish position. The debate ultimately went to the day of the final ECON committee vote in July with an oral amendment tabled during the vote by Gay Mitchell to secure the eligibility of international assets.

The outcome was the adoption by Parliament of the more progressive approach that had been widely favoured. June 2009 elections at the European Parliament
You will note that no one involved was knowledgeable enough to understand that if loan restrictions were eliminated that the field would be clear to exploit the educated and employed young people of Ireland, not even mentioning the stampede of EU funds that went into US Sub-Prime.

These requests were not made by responsible bankers who would have worked at the coalface in branches up and down the country. But the whole impersonal touch was dictated from Head Offices with the sole aim of getting much money as possible lumped on our youth so that mortgages would then be securitised; commissions earned etc. Then the whole wheels of greed were set in motion; land bought, houses built until the system broke down. This was all facilitated by the International Financial Buccaneers (IFB), the same guys that our Government went running to for help when the financial edifice collapsed. The result is that all the bad private lending has been nicely shifted onto the Public Debt.

Now what greatly helped the IFB was the massive degree of liberalism and no regulation that existed. Religion was separated from State and Commerce. This could have been a noble state of affairs; but it hinged on being fair and that professionals would keep to best practise. This was not the case; the IFB with no regularity system keeping an eye and with new fangled financial instruments became like Anarchists and made huge money on spreading financial destruction throughout the world. The IFB were free to roam unrestricted right throughout the world while our politicians turned a blind eye; what devastation there is because of this political indifference! :mad:
 
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meriwether

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Do you know what usury is? do you recognise this eq. P= (1+1/n)^n, when n goes to infinity P=?, or its implications in the context of usury, if not, imo you have no means of recognising the problem.
You're dead right.
 

Iarmuid

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You're dead right.
]
The Third World War has already started .... The war is tearing down Brazil, Latin America, and practically all the Third World. Instead of soldiers dying, there are children. It is a war over the Third World debt, one which has as its main weapon, interest, a weapon more deadly than the atom bomb, more shattering than a laser beam
Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva

Except now, Its mine, ours, you and yours turn.
 

Tombo

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There seems to be a little confusion here.

The yield to maturity on Irish government bonds isn't the interest we pay, but an indication of the interest we would need to pay if we borrowed more.

We are still paying exactly the same rate of interest we committed to when the bonds were issued. So where is the usury??

More interestingly (and this will do in the heads of the residents financial nutters) , the current bond yields indicate that those "nasty foreigners" would be willing to sell back our debt to us at a loss.

Yes, that is right. For every €100 they lent us over 10 years, they would be willing to wipe our slate clean for about €80. That's pretty generous of them don't you think?:)
 

hmmm

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Let's see if I get this straight. We are borrowing 20 billion a year. You want us to continue borrowing this money (by not cutting anything) and you also want us to not repay our outstanding debt? You're accusing people who judge us to be at high risk of default of lending to us at usurious rates, while at the same time talking about default as a very viable option?
 

Radix

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When we wanted their money, they were God's.

Not that we are finding it difficult to pay it back, your knee jerk responses like 'burn the buccaneers' are something I'd expect to find at a halting site in Rathkeale.

Get it into your heads, we are the bucanneers of Europe. It was long commented upon by more prudent nations in Europe while we were busy blowing our wasteful bubble built on the vanities of some who had little interest in anyone but themselves. That's what we Irish are largely.

Do you forget the comments of the German Ambassador Christian Pauls that "Ireland is a coarse place with a sad history where the natives are obsessed by money", and this was before belly up for Tigericus Celticus. He drew rebukes from Jim Mitchell for FG and Dermot Ahern for FF at the time and through official channels.

But now we know that the Irish establishment was wrong and a humble ambassador to a country was just telling it as he saw it in the capital city his country posted him to.

Get off the stage!
 

Iarmuid

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So where is the usury??
Here is the usury

The Irish Government Debt Clock was set at midnight on June 30th 2009, when it was €65.278 billion, it has since increased to approx 90,000,000.

Here one can see usury in motion

FinanceDublin.com - Irish Debt Clock

Find below the figuress for the tax take and deficit for 2008 to 2010





one notes even though government spending has fallen, the deficit remains or grows. In an economy where M3 is declining because private lending has stopped or people refuse or are unable to borrow the government must step in and inject money into the economy to prevent deflation, it is why central banks have engaged in QE and fear deflation.

It is obliquely related to the paradox of saving, which, is not paradoxical when one accepts, all money is debt. Money in its current guise is always the liability of another, it has therefore a "natural" decay rate, as it is paid back it is extuinguished.

In the case of Ireland the more austerity that is imposed on the nation the more the decline or shrinkage in the economy, the less the tax take, the higher percentage of which must go to finance interest payments and so on. On the other hand the gvernment can no longer afford to "stimulate" the economy as it has blown its wad on bank bailouts it is depentent on external factors to "grow" its way out of the debt, a fantasy in the current world climate. As Hudson says debt which can not be repaid will not be repaid, in the meantime it wont stop them extracting till literally the pips squeak.
 


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