Hungary, immigration and birth-rate

Degeneration X

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Its all part of the one policy.
Most developed and civilised countries (European, American, east Asian/Japan etc. and Australia etc.) are reproducing at less than the replacement rate. The banksters tell us that this negative growth will lead to a pensions time bomb and economic collapse.

Most shithole countries are reproducing their population at astronomical rates, leading to war and famine.
Idiots like Coveney have put 2 and 2 together, and got 22.

Orban has put 2 and 2 together, and got 4.

It seems you just swallowed the narrative that Hungary is a rogue state, and were surprised that these new policies smelled of good things, like mom and apple pie.
Well, now you understand the maths behind them.
Not exactly new policies - Hitler, Mao and Mussolini all encouraged higher birthrates.
 


recedite

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No idea is totally new.
These are new policies because they have not yet been implemented.
 

AyaanMyHero

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Following on from the Israel fertility rates and the fact that one reason for them being so high was the fear Jews had about being outnumbered, could it be that recent mass immigration from Muslim countries into Europe is intended by the elites to trigger a similar fear and increased fertility rates amongst native Europeans ? A double whammy. Invite lots of immigrants from Muslim countries and provoke a population race between muslims and natives. If you feel you need population increase that is a good way to get it.

Anyone believe it ?


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Polybius

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Do we need to do this? Given how automation will make so people's jobs redundant in the not too distant future is there a need for replacement population via either immigration or incentives to increase the indigenous birth-rate?
If automation is going to replace low skilled workers then we certainly don't need third world immigration.
 

AyaanMyHero

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Do we need to do this? Given how automation will make so people's jobs redundant in the not too distant future is there a need for replacement population via either immigration or incentives to increase the indigenous birth-rate?
This ability of technology to make people redundant is no more powerful today than it was in the past century. In fact, it is less powerful today than it was in the past.

The past century has seen huge strides forward in computing technology. This has been driven almost exclusively by an observed law called Moore's Law. It states that every few years we can make a compute device twice as capable as before for the same cost.

The past 10 years has seen the demise of this law. The attainment of additional compute power is becoming more and more costly. A fundamental breakthrough in device technology is needed to get back to winning ways but it seems quite a way off (like 20+ years away).

Because the cost of compute devices is rising, it will become more difficult to apply these devices to exert the same level of influence on industry and business that they have for the past century.

Don't believe the hype.




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Dame_Enda

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Yes fair play. It's a myth we have to be multicultural to avert stagnation as a society or economically.
 

Sync

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If it works for Israel then why couldn't it work for Hungary?
Well because Israel's able to discriminate in it's application of laws because it's comfortable with it's status and isn't subject to oversight.

I think this is a good idea by Hungary. There's no way it will be allowed to just focus on the people Orban would deem "Hungarian" though. So for instance: If I move there tomorrow as an Irish or French or Romanian citizen and decide to have 3 kids (Or whatever the qualifying number is) then I'm going to be able to be entitled to the same stuff as Orban's target demo.

This will end up in court because he'll try and avoid that.
 

flavirostris

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Orban's policy is only possible because he is keeping a close eye on the borders.

It would be nuts to incentivize for example Pakistani immigrants to have large families.

But he's in the rare position in Europe in that there are no significant non Hungarian minorities.
 

Polybius

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Orban's policy is only possible because he is keeping a close eye on the borders.

It would be nuts to incentivize for example Pakistani immigrants to have large families.

But he's in the rare position in Europe in that there are no significant non Hungarian minorities.
Tax breaks are the best way to do it in Ireland rather than increased child benefit or freebies. Muslims and Africans tend not to pay tax anyways and therefore won't be incentivised to have more kids.
 

Trampas

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Well because Israel's able to discriminate in it's application of laws because it's comfortable with it's status and isn't subject to oversight.

I think this is a good idea by Hungary. There's no way it will be allowed to just focus on the people Orban would deem "Hungarian" though. So for instance: If I move there tomorrow as an Irish or French or Romanian citizen and decide to have 3 kids (Or whatever the qualifying number is) then I'm going to be able to be entitled to the same stuff as Orban's target demo.

This will end up in court because he'll try and avoid that.
He can't avoid that but in reality he isn't trying to. What he is avoiding is his country being selected as a destination for Africans or Muslims or (horrors) both. He already knows how this looks having watched as Hungarian police registered about 400,000 migrants up to the end of 2015. Of course most were passing through but there are plenty more where they originated.
 

Roll_On

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Orban's ideas are a lot of crackpot eugenics.

He is saying that in 20 years time (minimum) there may be enough of a population to sustain a modern economy? In the long run, he and his followers will be dead, when the dubious benefits of this come to pass.

Meanwhile, the removal of women from the workforce to raise babies, cook and look after their big men will put more pressure on the workers currently employed. What is he going to do, force more and more overtime?

Who is going to invest in a country with no workers? Hungary has poor healthcare and education, and emigration will continue.

Either this is a popularity stunt, or a crackpot idea. The way forward would be persuade Hungary's emigrants to return, as well as allowing immigrants to enter, but who would want to go back to Orban's personal political slum?
Do you think replacing the Hungarian people with Syrians is going to fix the education and health systems? Are you familiar with health and education in Syria?
 

Roll_On

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Well because Israel's able to discriminate in it's application of laws because it's comfortable with it's status and isn't subject to oversight.

I think this is a good idea by Hungary. There's no way it will be allowed to just focus on the people Orban would deem "Hungarian" though. So for instance: If I move there tomorrow as an Irish or French or Romanian citizen and decide to have 3 kids (Or whatever the qualifying number is) then I'm going to be able to be entitled to the same stuff as Orban's target demo.

This will end up in court because he'll try and avoid that.
I don't think other European people moving to Hungary is perceived to be a problem though. Likewise, I don't think Hungarians coming here, working and availing of public services is a problem. Their kids will be much the same as the kids of natives and they're unlikely to want to live on the dole for a few years then crash cars into crowds and go on a stabby stabby spree.
 

JacquesHughes

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We should not let Hungary be bullied by EU institutions.

I posted on this great unsayable some years back. I've never heard any politician refer to (Can you name any Irish, German or British politician who's made any statement?) never mind enact policy on what is arguably the greatest long term threat Europeans face.

Even mentioning this problem is considered grubby or suspect by some.
Orban is not as isolated as the European Peoples' Party [ a misnomer if ever there was one] would like. The Visegrad group of countries will watch his proposals with sympathy, as a possible model for themselves. Croatia too (the 4.1 million of them scrapped their way through to the world cup final last year- so they don't lack self-confidence) is unlikely to surrender it's hard-won independence to just any unrelated people from another continent who can arrive there in large numbers.


I would choose that the nations of Europe do preserve their identities and continue their extraordinary contribution to world culture. Ireland should support Hungary's right to democratic self-determination within the EU, and learn from it's example when it chooses constructive policies.

Let the EU permit national variety and different things to be tried; including the response to 'demographic collapse'.
 

owedtojoy

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Do you think replacing the Hungarian people with Syrians is going to fix the education and health systems? Are you familiar with health and education in Syria?
That is just fear-mongering shyte, because I advocating no such thing.

Just pointing out that if Hungarians let Orban lead then down some sort of ethnically pure rat-hole, they can expect the poverty and low quality of life that will go with that.

That goes especially for Hungarian women - it's the kitchen, the nursery and the bedroom for you now, Maria.
 

Polybius

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That is just fear-mongering shyte, because I advocating no such thing.

Just pointing out that if Hungarians let Orban lead then down some sort of ethnically pure rat-hole, they can expect the poverty and low quality of life that will go with that.

That goes especially for Hungarian women - it's the kitchen, the nursery and the bedroom for you now, Maria.
Where's your evidence for any of this? How exactly will Hungary be improved by immigration from countries like Nigeria or Pakistan? And why do you think women who have children are oppressed? Many women would much prefer to be with their children than working some dead end job they hate. In the West many women are forced to put their kids in a creché to be raised by strangers just so they can work long hours to pay rent to a greedy establishment landlord. What's so great about that?

You probably think you are left wing but you are essentially just an apologist for the rich who want more women and immigrants in the West's labour force so that wages will be rock bottom and profits maximised.
 

Lagertha

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Tax breaks are the best way to do it in Ireland rather than increased child benefit or freebies. Muslims and Africans tend not to pay tax anyways and therefore won't be incentivised to have more kids.
Exactly. People use the excuse of needing migrants to do the jobs that the Irish won't and to a point that is true, something which needs to change. If Paddy and Mary hadn't got Dole money to pay for them while they live under mammy and daddy's roof they'd be forced to do the jobs. Likewise if Paddy and Mary won't work to warm myself were having their benefit cut every single year because they think they're too good to work in a shop or a factory or in the hospitality industry they'd soon be off the Dole.

The flip side of the argument is that you don't see very many black lads working in supermarkets, the hospitality industry or doing any unskilled low wage work because once they've got that leave to remain or are given asylum they don't bother to work. That's because they're entitled to all the same allowances as an Irish person and for them, getting a house and Social Welfare is more than they ever would have had back home in Africa.
 

recedite

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I think this is a good idea by Hungary. There's no way it will be allowed to just focus on the people Orban would deem "Hungarian" though. So for instance: If I move there tomorrow as an Irish or French or Romanian citizen and decide to have 3 kids (Or whatever the qualifying number is) then I'm going to be able to be entitled to the same stuff as Orban's target demo.
This will end up in court because he'll try and avoid that.
Hungary has absolutely no problem with other Europeans moving in, they just don't want the whole of the third world arriving on their doorstep (as already happened)

I don't think other European people moving to Hungary is perceived to be a problem though. Likewise, I don't think Hungarians coming here, working and availing of public services is a problem. Their kids will be much the same as the kids of natives and they're unlikely to want to live on the dole for a few years then crash cars into crowds and go on a stabby stabby spree.
Exactly.
 

Kevin Parlon

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That is just fear-mongering shyte, because I advocating no such thing.
No one but the self-loathing loony-left, open-borders extremists are, and yet it is not untrue to suggest something like that is happening just the same.

Just pointing out that if Hungarians let Orban lead then down some sort of ethnically pure rat-hole, they can expect the poverty and low quality of life that will go with that.
So if Hungary wants for itself what Korea, Taiwan, China, Bhutan, Nepal, Mongolia etc already has, they're going down some "ethnically pure rat-hole" (every example I have given you has a either a higher economic growth rate or similar to any European country). Or is this moral imperative of yours only applicable to countries which are ethnically European?

That goes especially for Hungarian women - it's the kitchen, the nursery and the bedroom for you now, Maria.
Most women I know choose not to work and to raise their kids. Which is more oppressive? Having to work or having the option not to?
 


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