• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

Hungary, immigration and birth-rate

flavirostris

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
24,569
That is just fear-mongering shyte, because I advocating no such thing.

Just pointing out that if Hungarians let Orban lead then down some sort of ethnically pure rat-hole, they can expect the poverty and low quality of life that will go with that.

That goes especially for Hungarian women - it's the kitchen, the nursery and the bedroom for you now, Maria.
This post is just pure, marxist cancer. This is the type of thinking which has corrupted Western European countries and which Orban, rightly wants to keep out of Hungary.
 


Barroso

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,953
It is often claimed ( the logic is rarely closely argued) that countries with low birth-rates, should receive more immigrants to correct their demographic change.

In Hungary Victor Orban is not accepting that route as Hungary's future.
Hungary tries for baby boom with tax breaks and loan forgiveness - BBC News

Hungary's current fertility rate is 1.45 children per woman. An increased fertility rate, Orban said, was a way of defending Hungary's future without depending on immigration.

During Mr Orban's State of the Nation speech announcing his proposals there was a small counter protest of approx. 2000 people.

The measures will include: loans to buy houses for mothers, mortgage debt forgiveness when one has three children, lifelong exemption from income tax when a woman has four children, also assistance with nursery places and buying larger vehicles.


Comment: Fair play to Hungary for not accepting the received orthodoxy, 'There's nothing your society can do; you have to be the passive recipient of demographic changes imposed on you by others'. Victor's analysis of the issues ( financial) underlying the demographic decrease seems plausible. It now takes two hard-working successful middle-managers to buy the house that a bank-clerk and a housewife could buy 80 years ago; there's just not time off the slippery career ladder, or in the long-hours work culture to raise children. The decision to have more children is at present, for many women, a choice for dependency upon her husband/partner ( very contrary to the current ethos of feminism) , or a choice for dependency upon the state ( even less reliable, welfare benefits subject to policy change, rarely generous and bearing a stigma).

You might note, bringing in immigrants to replace a supposed 'missing generation' mocks the choice of those well-meaning women who declined to have children to 'save the planet' ( I have little idea how common those sentiments are).
'I’m not having children because I want to save the planet' - BBC News

I'm not convinced a decreasing birthrate in Europe is a problem at all. Romania's population has been decreasing since 1990- and the EU seems pretty sanguine about 'the problem'- no Brussels agency has asked me to move there; though I could be persuaded and have proven 'stud' characteristics.
Romania Population (2019) - Worldometers
From the same website, Hungary's population has been dropping since 1980.
If their government wants to reverse this trend, the first thing they should do is discourage emigration; by which I mean make it easier and more comfortable to remain in Hungary. In other words by providing jobs and housing for the native population.

Unfortunately globalisation encourages emigration from countries like Hungary with a well-educated workforce to places like London, Dublin (and doubtless NY, Frankfurt, Wien, Paris too) where some of them become employees of big multinationals, while others follow and find work at a lower level.

As Irish people, we should be familiar with the scenario. Remember all those millions who emigrated to the US, GB, Canada, Oz etc? They didn't do it for fun, even if many had fun and adventures along the way. They did it because there were no opportunities at home. Work and housing, the sine qua non of staying home and starting up a family.

If Orban can offer that, his population will remain, and maybe even grow again.
 

Barroso

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,953
Most women I know choose not to work and to raise their kids.
Wow, you must live in a very wealthy gated community then. Either that or in a community of what you would probably call welfare scroungers.

In the real world, most women work to ensure their own independence, as well as because the family needs the money in today's world to provide what are now seen as necessities, but once used to be available to the rich only - cars, tvs, washing machines, foreign holidays and many etcs.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
46,767
This post is just pure, marxist cancer. This is the type of thinking which has corrupted Western European countries and which Orban, rightly wants to keep out of Hungary.
Nothing to do with marxism (clearly, you know nothing about marxism, except as a label you can throw around).

Raising kids is no joke, mate, if Orban wants young mothers to raise 4 children, that takes them out of the workforce, for at least four years, more likely six or eight.

Hungary I would guess has a high proportion of women in the workforce - if it wants to replace them, or have child carers to look after the children they bear, you are talking about finding immigrant women to replace them. Grannies can only do so much. In the UK, childcare jobs in the NHS are mostly immigrants.

Not marxism, just economic common sense.

Orban may as well go the whole hog, and bar women from 3rd level education - what is the point of educating women when all they need are reproductive organs? Rather, Orban wants to control their reproductive organs. No wonder they will flee abroad.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
46,767
Wow, you must live in a very wealthy gated community then. Either that or in a community of what you would probably call welfare scroungers.

In the real world, most women work to ensure their own independence, as well as because the family needs the money in today's world to provide what are now seen as necessities, but once used to be available to the rich only - cars, tvs, washing machines, foreign holidays and many etcs.
Under modern capitalism, most families need two incomes - father's and mother's. It is also insurance if one of them becomes unemployed.

Not saying if it is "good" or "bad", just a fact.
 
Last edited:

recedite

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
1,411

recedite

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
1,411
Under modern capitalism, most families need two incomes - father's and mother's. It is also insurance if one of them becomes unemployed.
I'm surprised at you, dooming single parents and homosexualists to failure :whistling:
 

parentheses

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,838
The Israelis succeeded in raising their birthrate significantly in the past decade or so.
 

Shpake

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,282
Some nomics economic waffle for yous:
The economic (mis?)benefits of migration... a listing. You might quantify it all diferently.
1,000 emigrants arrive in the country...
If none of them draw benefits, all get jobs immediately and pay taxes. Well that's going to increase the GNP.
But that's a bit simple.
If they find jobs, but bump home-grown workers into unemployment... 'nother story. One would have to pose the question: Does the amount of tax money they pay equal the amount paid out in benefits to the home-grown. Even still some citizen in a job might look on this differently than one of the newly unemployed citizens.
But in one way it is like international trade:
If say, some 4n lady comes in and finds a job minding the children for a couple who are both (say) highly trained professionals... doctors dentists etc. They pay her food, lodgings and €4 an hour... then it's win all round. The dentists earn their €60 an hour each and can devote themselves to extra work. No brainer here.
But once she wants to have children and draw benefits from the state... the picture changes. She'll want health, schooling etc from the state.
Newly arrived immigrants mostly need big inputs... language classes, on the job training, vaccinations etc. They might pick things up quickly if they are young. Working in a fast-food restaurant doesn't require too much training.
As long as the newly unemployed home-grown workers can find alternative employment further up the job market then all should be happy.
But things like ghettos and crime-ridden streets, religious strife, guns drugs etc. It all affects the quality of life. And it's impossible to evaluate the quality of life in money terms.
 

flavirostris

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
24,569

recedite

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
1,411
If say, some 4n lady comes in and finds a job minding the children for a couple who are both (say) highly trained professionals... doctors dentists etc. They pay her food, lodgings and €4 an hour... then it's win all round. The dentists earn their €60 an hour each and can devote themselves to extra work. No brainer here.
As long as the minder goes back to the slums when she finishes work.
Rich Americans have been at this for decades, having their children reared and their gardens tended by Mexicans. It leads to a divided society, and a huge inequality in wealth, which in turn encourages crime. I doubt it does the rich kids any long term good either.

However, one thing you do get is loads of statistics showing the "most educated" members of society are the most in favour of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration. Because elitists have always liked the idea of cheap labour.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
46,767
The Israelis succeeded in raising their birthrate significantly in the past decade or so.
Israel is perennially under siege, and has a large traditional minority (Orthodox Jews and Muslims) who place women in the home.

Nor does Israel have an emigration problem such as Hungary has. It It has good welfare systems for childcare like other advanced democracies.

There are no parallels between Israel and Hungary that tell me the policies are the same, or that the results will be the same. Israel seems to be able to run a pro-family policy without abridging women's choices.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
46,767
As long as the minder goes back to the slums when she finishes work.
Rich Americans have been at this for decades, having their children reared and their gardens tended by Mexicans. It leads to a divided society, and a huge inequality in wealth, which in turn encourages crime. I doubt it does the rich kids any long term good either.

However, one thing you do get is loads of statistics showing the "most educated" members of society are the most in favour of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration. Because elitists have always liked the idea of cheap labour.
The NHS and HSE are staffed in many of their lower level positions by skilled women who happen to be immigrants, or children of immigrants.

If you want to do their jobs, then you are welcome to make the career change ....
 

parentheses

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,838
Israel is perennially under siege, and has a large traditional minority (Orthodox Jews and Muslims) who place women in the home.

Nor does Israel have an emigration problem such as Hungary has. It It has good welfare systems for childcare like other advanced democracies.

There are no parallels between Israel and Hungary that tell me the policies are the same, or that the results will be the same. Israel seems to be able to run a pro-family policy without abridging women's choices.
If the Israelis can do it I don't see why the Hungarians can't.
 

recedite

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
1,411
Orban may as well go the whole hog, and bar women from 3rd level education - what is the point of educating women when all they need are reproductive organs? Rather, Orban wants to control their reproductive organs. No wonder they will flee abroad.
There are no parallels between Israel and Hungary that tell me the policies are the same, or that the results will be the same. Israel seems to be able to run a pro-family policy without abridging women's choices.
Can you give us one single example of an anti-woman Hungarian law, or a law that restricts their choices in any way whatsoever?
Maybe you should just stop posting this makey-uppy shite? Its making you look like an idiot.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top