Ian Paisley and his responsibility for the troubles

Global Justice

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The disgusting and hypocritical cries of 'reverse racism' by unionists is perverted and totally bogus as it was unionists who were the gerrymandered dominant group who were hell-bent on imposing institutional sectarian policies in every facet of society.

Catholics had to endure, suffer and struggle for their own survival in an arrogated Protestant supremacist society.
 


Glaucon

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Thank you for the honesty. As you say it was never as endemic (not so sure about sanction- those with power in the nationalist community certainly never tried to stop it!) from nationalism - but ONLY because they were the minority.

And if we are being honest, as the Civil Rights Movement never acknowledged that both communities discriminated, let alone protested at nationalist discrimination - it does rather suggest that they were not seeking a fair society, just one in which they themselves would be the ones doing the discriminating.

And when Unionists saw how places like Newry and Enniskillen under nationalist control were run - is it any wonder they did everything they could to block nationalism?

And fast forward to the 21st century - even with all the reforms - the most blatant discrimination was within the CNR community - step forward and take a bow Conor Murphy and his cronies.
Neither side are aliens, they are calculating human beings acting, or thinking they are acting, in their own side's interests - this is something both blocks fail to recognize. Neither side is the bogeyman. If I grew up in an average Unionist household, it's hardly likely that I'd have the same mental and emotional outlook having not grown up in one. Reading into the Algerian conflict, had Algeria been partitioned in 1962 and the European-majority areas remained, I'm sure the ideology of the French state concerning settlement in that area would be very different to what it is now. Much of history is mere circumstance.

NI, and the underpinnings of the GFA to be frank, is a zero-sum game from which we must find a creative escape. I think it impossible for Nationalists to ever truly be emotionally reconciled to 'Northern Ireland' given that it was founded against their will and against their interests, but equally it will do no good to replace a permanently disaffected Nationalist minority with a disaffected PUL one in an all-island state.

I think we have a shared hope that Europe can cut the Gordian knot, alas there are many stages to go before that can be reached. We will trundle on in the meantime disagreeing non-violently. Which is probably as good as can be hoped for.
 

Enigma Variations

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And if we are being honest, as the Civil Rights Movement never acknowledged that both communities discriminated, let alone protested at nationalist discrimination - it does rather suggest that they were not seeking a fair society, just one in which they themselves would be the ones doing the discriminating.

And when Unionists saw how places like Newry and Enniskillen under nationalist control were run - is it any wonder they did everything they could to block nationalism?
You are blowing the issue of nationalist discrimination against Protestants out of all proportion in order to defend the indefensible. This is what the 1969 Cameron Report had to say about the matter:
"We are satisfied that all these Unionist controlled councils have used and use their power to make appointments in a way which benefited Protestants. In the figures available for October 1968 only thirty per cent of Londonderry Corporations administrative, clerical and technical employees were Catholics. Out of the ten best-paid posts only one was held by a Catholic. In Dungannon Urban District none of the Council’s administrative, clerical and technical employees was a Catholic. In County Fermanagh no senior council posts (and relatively few others) were held by Catholics: this was rationalised by reference to ‘proven loyalty’ as a necessary test for local authority appointments. In that County, among about seventy-five drivers of school buses, at most seven were Catholics. This would appear to be a very clear case of sectarian and political discrimination. Armagh Urban District employed very few Catholics in its salaried posts, but did not appear to discriminate at lower levels. Omagh Urban District showed no clearcut pattern of discrimination, though we have seen what would appear to be undoubted evidence of employment discrimination by Tyrone County Council.
It is fair to note that Newry Urban District, which is controlled by non-Unionists, employed very few Protestants. But two wrongs do not make a right; Protestants who are in the minority in the Newry area, by contrast to the other areas we have specified, do not have a serious unemployment problem, and in Newry there are relatively few Protestants, whereas in the other towns Catholics make up a substantial part of the population. It is also right to note that in recent years both Londonderry and Newry have introduced a competitive examination system in local authority appointments."
CAIN: Issue: Discrimination - Quotations on the topic of Discrimination
But of course you're a much more objective observer than Cameron, I'm sure..............:roll:
 
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I was just listening to RTE radio. The superlative journalist Ed Moloney was discussing the life of Ian Paisley.

Moloney offered a devastating assessment of Ian Paisley, saying that, without Paisley, Sir Terence O'Neill might have survived as leader of Northern Ireland and there would not have been any troubles or Provo campaign.


I suppose a good case can be made that Paisley is not the only one who bears responsibility for the troubles. Nonetheless, Moloney's assessment is savage and indicates his belief that Paisley bears great responsibility for causing the troubles in Northern Ireland.

I'll try to put up a podcast of Moloney's contribution on RTE Liveline later
Ian Paisley was born in 1926, by that time Republicans had been killing Unionists for over a decade and he grew up in that constant atmosphere of fear. The Troubles produced him, not the other way around and if it weren't him to play that role it would have been someone else.
 

Enigma Variations

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Ian Paisley was born in 1926, by that time Republicans had been killing Unionists for over a decade and he grew up in that constant atmosphere of fear. The Troubles produced him, not the other way around and if it weren't him to play that role it would have been someone else.
What an appallingly dishonest, loathsome excuse for an argument that is. During the 1920's Catholics murdered Protestants certainly, but most of the murder victims were actually Catholics murdered by Protestants.
And most of the violence in the 20's occurred before Paisley was even born.
For the record, the vast majority of killings of the period took place in Belfast between 1920 and 1922.
According to historian Robert Lynch, 465 people died in Belfast in that period. Of the dead, 258 were Catholic civilians, 159 were Protestant civilians, thirty-five Crown forces and twelve IRA members.
History of Belfast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paisley's bigotry was the product of his own flawed character, not the troubles of the 1920's.
Deceased Derry solicitor, and ex-Liberal Party senator, Claude Wilton, (1919 - 2008) and thus a near contemporary of Paisley's, & also a Protestant, took an entirely different path in the 1960's because he was driven by his instinct for social justice, and rather than allow his judgement to be clouded by primitive 17th century religious values, was moved to support the nascent civil rights movement of the period. Paisley stirred up mobs to oppose the basic reforms Wilton and others sought, reforms which nobody nowadays would ever argue weren't entirely justified and necessary. The changes sought were very modest demands indeed.
We all have to make choices in life. We can choose to live our lives within the law or we can become criminals. We can choose to work hard or languish on benefits. We can choose not to judge people irrationally because of their colour, race or religion, or we can choose to hate them.
Claude Wilton chose his path because he was a decent man. Paisley chose his because he was a fundamentalist bigot.
 

Ozyedia

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Ian Paisley was born in 1926, by that time Republicans had been killing Unionists for over a decade and he grew up in that constant atmosphere of fear. The Troubles produced him, not the other way around and if it weren't him to play that role it would have been someone else.
'The Troubles' began in the 60s. Nobody is claiming Paisley single-handedly started the troubles. He just exacerbated, prolonged and intensified them.
 

Mickeymac

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Quote Originally Posted by Four Leaf Rover View Post
Ian Paisley was born in 1926, by that time Republicans had been killing Unionists for over a decade and he grew up in that constant atmosphere of fear. The Troubles produced him, not the other way around and if it weren't him to play that role it would have been someone else.



'The Troubles' began in the 60s. Nobody is claiming Paisley single-handedly started the troubles. He just exacerbated, prolonged and intensified them.





Sock v Sock is quite hilarious here.........
 

death or glory

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'The Troubles' began in the 60s. Nobody is claiming Paisley single-handedly started the troubles. He just exacerbated, prolonged and intensified them.
Are you sure about that.
Read any of the 50 pages and even the Opening Title for the post.
 

Mickeymac

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Are you sure about that.
Read any of the 50 pages and even the Opening Title for the post.



FFS Dog, everyone knows, including Lizzie Windsor knows when the troubles started in Ireland, you need to read what she said at the State Banquet where she even spoke Gaelic............how stupid are you DOG?
 

death or glory

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What an appallingly dishonest, loathsome excuse for an argument that is. During the 1920's Catholics murdered Protestants certainly, but most of the murder victims were actually Catholics murdered by Protestants.
And most of the violence in the 20's occurred before Paisley was even born.
For the record, the vast majority of killings of the period took place in Belfast between 1920 and 1922.
According to historian Robert Lynch, 465 people died in Belfast in that period. Of the dead, 258 were Catholic civilians, 159 were Protestant civilians, thirty-five Crown forces and twelve IRA members.
History of Belfast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paisley's bigotry was the product of his own flawed character, not the troubles of the 1920's.
Deceased Derry solicitor, and ex-Liberal Party senator, Claude Wilton, (1919 - 2008) and thus a near contemporary of Paisley's, & also a Protestant, took an entirely different path in the 1960's because he was driven by his instinct for social justice, and rather than allow his judgement to be clouded by primitive 17th century religious values, was moved to support the nascent civil rights movement of the period. Paisley stirred up mobs to oppose the basic reforms Wilton and others sought, reforms which nobody nowadays would ever argue weren't entirely justified and necessary. The changes sought were very modest demands indeed.
We all have to make choices in life. We can choose to live our lives within the law or we can become criminals. We can choose to work hard or languish on benefits. We can choose not to judge people irrationally because of their colour, race or religion, or we can choose to hate them.
Claude Wilton chose his path because he was a decent man. Paisley chose his because he was a fundamentalist bigot.
Again enigma comes out with a biased one sided post. He can't see how someone could hold a different view to him.
By his posts he shows his sectarianism.
 

death or glory

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FFS Dog, everyone knows, including Lizzie Windsor knows when the troubles started in Ireland, you need to read what she said at the State Banquet where she even spoke Gaelic............how stupid are you DOG?
Mickey,
obviously not as stupid as you, thank goodness.
If you ever got invited to Windsor castle Mickey would you join Marty in toasting her majesty.
 

Mickeymac

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Mickey,
obviously not as stupid as you, thank goodness.
If you ever got invited to Windsor castle Mickey would you join Marty in toasting her majesty.

Off course I would, why should I not, she leaves presently and I think Ireland and England become even greater friends than what they are today after they leave.
 

death or glory

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Off course I would, why should I not, she leaves presently and I think Ireland and England become even greater friends than what they are today after they leave.
Mickey,
can't make head nor tail out of that,
write it out again so that I can understand.
 

Ozyedia

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Quote Originally Posted by Four Leaf Rover View Post
Ian Paisley was born in 1926, by that time Republicans had been killing Unionists for over a decade and he grew up in that constant atmosphere of fear. The Troubles produced him, not the other way around and if it weren't him to play that role it would have been someone else.



'The Troubles' began in the 60s. Nobody is claiming Paisley single-handedly started the troubles. He just exacerbated, prolonged and intensified them.





Sock v Sock is quite hilarious here.........
Still pretending i'm a sock Mickey you daft hoor? Ah well, better than being a Socialist GOPer or a thick plastic bellend.

Still awaiting any evidence that i'm a sock, or even a name for who i'm supposedly a sock of.
 

vivabrigada

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Cover up's from day one.
THERE have been calls for a fresh investigation into the death of the first victim of the Troubles who was shot by the UVF 50 years ago on Friday.

The murder of Catholic man John Scullion marked the beginning of a vicious sectarian killing campaign by the emerging loyalist group half a century ago.

For weeks after the killing the RUC claimed the 28-year-old had been stabbed, sparking claims they were also involved in a cover-up
.
50 years since first victim of Troubles was shot by UVF - The Irish News
 

Irish-Rationalist

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Spence served 19 years for that murder, and while in prison encouraged Loyalist prisoners to learn Irish history and language. He acted as mentor to the young David Ervine, who then went on to become PUP leader.
 

vivabrigada

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Gusty Spence wasn't convicted of John Scullion's murder, although there is little doubt he was responsible.
Shankill loyalist Gusty Spence was one of three men accused of the murder but the charges were later dropped.

The other two men pleaded guilty to a charge of “unlawfully concealing the commission of the murder by Augustus Spence” after prosecutors claimed they had been in the car when Spence fired two shots at Mr Scullion. They were jailed for four years.
He was convicted of another subsequent sectarian murder by the UVF.
Spence was eventually convicted for his part in the killing of Peter Ward and served 18 years behind bars.
Paisley's Ulster Protestant Volunteers were synonymous with the Belfast UVF at the time.
 

sadmal

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Spence served 19 years for that murder, and while in prison encouraged Loyalist prisoners to learn Irish history and language. He acted as mentor to the young David Ervine, who then went on to become PUP leader.
I doubt if his victims families care that he learned Irish history and language. They're better people than Ii would be if they have forgiven him.
 

vivabrigada

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I doubt if his victims families care that he learned Irish history and language. They're better people than Ii would be if they have forgiven him.
On hearing of his sons death, Mr Scullion knelt down and prayed for his son's killers.
 

Irish-Rationalist

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Gusty Spence wasn't convicted of John Scullion's murder, although there is little doubt he was responsible.

He was convicted of another subsequent sectarian murder by the UVF.

Paisley's Ulster Protestant Volunteers were synonymous with the Belfast UVF at the time.
I got mixed up with Scullion and Ward. As far as I remember, he pled not guilty to the Ward murder, and maintained his innocence throughout his sentence. Did you know that Spence also wrote a letter of condolence to a deceased PIRA man's widow, and viewed him as a dead soldier of Ireland? It's all in Roy Garland's biography of Spence. He said and did a lot of things that you wouldn't expect from a Loyalist paramilitary, and manifested a greater willingness to bring the conflict to an end than the likes of Paisley and the DUP at the time.
 


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