If Gaza is wrong, so is Aleppo ... but Where is the Outrage?



parentheses

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The Russians have an instinctive care for Middle Eastern Christians- all the Ruling Elites in Western Europe dont including the ROI, and dont get me started on the American one.

The Cat seems to have got the Pope's tongue too.
 

GDPR

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The Cat seems to have got the Pope's tongue too.
The Holy Father is a prisoner in the Vatican and no one can see him without the thugs of the Anti-Pope about. Jorge has made his contempt for the Christian Orient very clear (using Byzantine as an insult for example).
 

owedtojoy

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And Russia is arming the regime, and bombing civilians in Aleppo. Nor does Assad refuse support form the brutal Islamic regime in Iran.

Read the OP - my point is that this war is unwinnable by any single side, even Assad + Russia.

So bombing Aleppo is just piling hatred and slaughter on top of pointlessness.

If bombing Gaza was wrong, then so is bombing Aleppo. Even more so, because it will not even extend the power of the regime, just destroy Syria's major centre of population.

An end to bombing should be sought by all sides, unless of guaranteed military targets. Bombing hospitals for political ends is despicable, no matter who does it.
 

mossyman

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How many civilians are you willing to kill to get them?
You know full well I'm not in favour of killing civilians. Where Assad and the Russians have been reckless are regards civilians I condemn that. As well as any war crimes and human rights abuses. Its not like I am saying Assad and the Russians are great. Its a choice between the lesser of two evils and what I believe represents the best outcome for Syria.

How do you see the situation playing out if the rebels win? There are something like 50 different armed rebel groups. Do you think they will form any kind of stable Government if they were handed a victory in the morning? Many of these groups want sharia law and don't believe in democracy at all.
 
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mossyman

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And Russia is arming the regime, and bombing civilians in Aleppo. Nor does Assad refuse support form the brutal Islamic regime in Iran.

Read the OP - my point is that this war is unwinnable by any single side, even Assad + Russia.

So bombing Aleppo is just piling hatred and slaughter on top of pointlessness.

If bombing Gaza was wrong, then so is bombing Aleppo. Even more so, because it will not even extend the power of the regime, just destroy Syria's major centre of population.

An end to bombing should be sought by all sides, unless of guaranteed military targets. Bombing hospitals for political ends is despicable, no matter who does it.
What makes you think the war is unwinnable?

No Gaza and Aleppo are not remotely comparable. Why do you keep saying they are? In Syria we have a civil war and global proxy war, in Gaza there is an occupation by a foreign country.
 

Ardillaun

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There's a fair bit of outrage in these threads about Assad and Co. I do my best to get worked up about it. He is despicable. Unfortunately, his opponents have among their number gentlemen who would slaughter us if they got the chance which does make them harder to love.
 

owedtojoy

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What makes you think the war is unwinnable?

No Gaza and Aleppo are not remotely comparable. Why do you keep saying they are? In Syria we have a civil war and global proxy war, in Gaza there is an occupation by a foreign country.
This war has been going on for 5 years.

The Syrian Army was close to collapse when Russia came to their aid last year. But even with Russian aid, I cannot see Syria defeating all the rebel groups, driving out the Turks, occupying Kurdish Rojava with another massive battle all the way to the Turkish border, besides defeating the fanatics of ISIS. That would take years more, even if Syria had all the resources, but its economy is f**ked, millions of its population have fled, and it is living on Iranian and Russian handouts.

Except for Assad and his family of course, who have bolt holes overseas they can flee to.

So I think it is time to settle this war - the kindest spin that can be put on Assad and Aleppo is that he wants to ensure it is part of his territory when he is forced to the conference table. He may not even be the main actor here - Putin and the Iranians virtually control him at this stage.

Gaza is a city and Aleppo is a city. Both are mercilessly bombarded to eliminate "terrorists", but that is just a blatant excuse to rain down terror on civilians. The people are Aleppo are not from a different planet to the people of Gaza - they are humans with exactly the same rights to life. Trying to draw a fake distinction is to justify murder.
 

owedtojoy

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There's a fair bit of outrage in these threads about Assad and Co. I do my best to get worked up about it. He is despicable. Unfortunately, his opponents have among their number gentlemen who would slaughter us if they got the chance which does make them harder to love.
.. so ... so ... you trailed off there without coming to the obvious conclusion ...

Syria is a complex civil war, the most complex I have ever come across, with war criminals on all sides.

The best solution is for a settlement because if a clear winning side emerges, that side will commit genocide against their defeated foes, after which there will be a blowback in a few years of another reverse genocide. An appalling vista? Quite.

So force them to the conference table, and try for a federal Syria, in a balance of power, on the lines of Iraq, maybe guaranteed by powers like Russia and the US.
 

mossyman

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Gaza is a city and Aleppo is a city. Both are mercilessly bombarded to eliminate "terrorists", but that is just a blatant excuse to rain down terror on civilians. The people are Aleppo are not from a different planet to the people of Gaza - they are humans with exactly the same rights to life. Trying to draw a fake distinction is to justify murder.
You're right Gaza and Aleppo are both cities. But the comparison ends there. No one supports killing civilians in either case. The difference with Gaza is that Israel should not be occupying Palestinian territory in the first place. The Syrian Government is trying to take its country back from foreign backed terrorist groups.
 

Dubstudent

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Ah, so you prefer the Shia brand of violent, totalitarian Islam. I don't see a big difference myself, but then, I'm not as well read on these matters as you, I'm sure.
Do you want me to go through the numbers again?

Y'know the number of people slaughtered in the West by Sunni Islamists in comparison to Shia Islamists?

There is quite the difference.
 

farnaby

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Staffan di Mistura, the UN representative says it is "another Srebenica, another Rwanda", incessant bombardment by Russian and Syrian planes of a city full of people is killing civilians, women and children for the reason that there are "terrorists" among them.

Excuse me? Isn't that the justification Israel gives for its bombardments of Gaza which (rightly) provoke anger and condemnation?
Strange OP.

Many Irish people feel pro-Palestinian because they believe that blatant human rights abuses (including but not limited to bombing of Gaza) have a simple solution - US funding and military support from Israel is cut off until basic standards of human rights for Palestinians are implemented.

Personally I am horrified by Aleppo even more than what happens in Gaza and wish for its speedy end. But it is a horrendously complicated conflict with at least six major regional and global powers involved on top of multiple religious and ethnic factions. Helplessness, not apathy, explains the relative lack of anger and condemnation.
 

parentheses

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And Russia is arming the regime, and bombing civilians in Aleppo. Nor does Assad refuse support form the brutal Islamic regime in Iran.

Read the OP - my point is that this war is unwinnable by any single side, even Assad + Russia.


Your OP is laughably one-sided. No criticism of America which has committed acts of war against Syria. No criticism of the fact America illegally conducts war operations in Syria. No criticism of the fact America sent thousands of tons of weapons to Syria. No criticism of American allies who openly support terror groups in Syria.

Your OP is just bloviating propaganda.
 

owedtojoy

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Do you want me to go through the numbers again?

Y'know the number of people slaughtered in the West by Sunni Islamists in comparison to Shia Islamists?

There is quite the difference.
It is good to know someone is keeping score.

But that is hardly the point.

If the Blue dead are more than the Green ones, then Blue are in the right.

Is it really that simple?

Isn't it time to stop the killing right now, rather than continue until there are equal numbers of dead on both sides, when (apparently) you will declare yourself satisfied?
 

Dubstudent

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Where was all the "human rights" whimpering from the West when it came to the ethnic cleansing slaughter their NTC rebels committed in Tawergha (Libya)?

Ah that's right **** all, nada.
 

owedtojoy

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Your OP is laughably one-sided. No criticism of America which has committed acts of war against Syria. No criticism of the fact America illegally conducts war operations in Syria. No criticism of the fact America sent thousands of tons of weapons to Syria. No criticism of American allies who openly support terror groups in Syria.

Your OP is just bloviating propaganda.
And hooray for the Israelis bombing Gaza, they are in the right too.

I did not set out to criticise - just to point out that with a bit of effort, maybe the killing in Syria, which has drifted in total pointlessness, can be stopped.
 

mossyman

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.. so ... so ... you trailed off there without coming to the obvious conclusion ...

Syria is a complex civil war, the most complex I have ever come across, with war criminals on all sides.

The best solution is for a settlement because if a clear winning side emerges, that side will commit genocide against their defeated foes, after which there will be a blowback in a few years of another reverse genocide. An appalling vista? Quite.

So force them to the conference table, and try for a federal Syria, in a balance of power, on the lines of Iraq, maybe guaranteed by powers like Russia and the US.
Assad has made huge efforts to keep the Govt multi religious and representative. He's not interested in genocide. Again I'm saying Assad is a great guy but he wants a stable secular Syria.

Bringing the more that 50 different Islamic rebel groups around the table is not going to work because many of them do not want democracy at all.

I'm off to bed.
 

Dubstudent

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It is good to know someone is keeping score.

But that is hardly the point.

If the Blue dead are more than the Green ones, then Blue are in the right.

Is it really that simple?

Isn't it time to stop the killing right now, rather than continue until there are equal numbers of dead on both sides, when (apparently) you will declare yourself satisfied?
The issue is that Sunni Islamists cannot be equated with Shia Islamists. That's the point I was making.

Several thousand killed all over the Western world in several countries by Sunni Islamists in the past 25 years in comparison to a little over 100 killed by Shia Islamists in Argentina and Bulgaria with the targets being Jewish/Israeli.

There is no comparison. Sunni Islamism is a far greater threat to the safety of Westerners and has proved far more fatal as the facts show.
 


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