If Scotland secedes...

CreamCracker

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gako said:
CreamCracker said:
gako said:
CreamCracker said:
gako said:
[quote="CreamCracker":3m3cjjpn][quote="gako":3m3cjjpn]Given the historical relationship between Scotland and England, and the film "Braveheart", etc etc etc, it seems odd that over the 12th of July in Belfast, I never seen one scot wearing anything close to the Scottish national flag or culture,not a kilt in sight. Union jack ,tee shirts, hats, flags, skirts, ties, bags, umberellas, the scottish in the city wore all these. Then for the SNP in scotland to be doing so well, its seems impossible without these very same peoples votes. After all scotland has a protestant majority. Are these people trying to ride two horses? IE: how can you pledge allegiance to the british queen, yet want independance fron her parliament? a thought just occured to me. Why not repatriate all the scotch presbyterians back to Scotland form the north of Ireland.
Then repatriate anybody else who wouldnt be happy, with the repatriation of the 6 counties back to where they belong, with the other 26.
The majority of Scots who want independence and vote SNP would be, I would speculate, generally from a Protestant background. It seems a majority of Catholics vote for unionist parties, such as 'Scottish' Labour. Then there are other Protestants of the Orange persuasion who generally are proud of their Scottish heritage but within the UK and want to retain all the trappings, such as the English Queen etc etc, and also vote for unionist parties. Then there are some Catholics who (increasingly) would vote SNP too. Of course this is all wide generalisations. The OO in NI, although often from the Scots tradition and proud of it, mostly assert the British 'Union Jack' tag as this is the best way for them, as they see it, to preserve the status quo. This is just how I see it and I'm sure there'll be plenty who disagree with it and that's what makes life interesting!
For myself I find the Irish question, in relation to part of my country being occupied by a foreign invader, more than "interesting". But thats besides the point.
The war that went on in the north, was not a religious war. Catholics can be found in countrys around the world, and who show allegience to their particular country of birth. Irish anglo political relations, throughout our recent history , have always been to do with British occupation, of one part or all, off this island.
If there or catholic unionist conservative scots, fair play. But thats to be fought out amongst the scots!
I fully agree. I have loads of English cousins, as I have some English heritage myself, and most of my English relations are Catholic. They are also very loyal to England and oh-so-English and proud of it. And fair enough.
PS: In these islands, when it comes to politics, 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' are meant in the 'background culture' sense rather than a religious sense. So you can be an 'Ulster Catholic' or 'Ulster Protestant' but still be a non-believer! :lol: It's gas!
Well it depends for me, especially if your relations are proud of their english history, in relation to Ireland, ie; Cromwell, and in being in tandem with loyalist death squads in the north etc etc. And for here you can be an Ulster 9 county sense, or an Ulster 6 county sense. Me going for the former true historical sense.
Ah yeah, I know. Above, I just meant Ulster Catholic or Protestant as shorthand for NI and the whole jazz in the context of Northern Ireland. But of course Ulster, the province, has 9 counties.
My English cousins, I'd assume, like most English people, don't realise the full extent of their history, and whatever they do know would, I'd imagine, be whitewashed and sanitized. Also generally speaking, very little, if any, history is learnt about Ireland.[/quote:3m3cjjpn]
You see because we have had a toubled history, not of our making, it is always in the irish conscience. Like anywhere in the world that has been brutally occupied, there is always going to be a long bad memory of that past, and for those that inflicted that past. For in the north of Ireland, that occupation continues. And the memory is raw.
I am sure for many hundreds of years, it has always been nice to have lived in an english country rose garden. But for many countrys around the world, this has been on their backs! There are many things I like about English culture, Shakespear, Tony Benn, Oassis, etc etc, Irish peple are not all long jaw boned, high forehead, drunken, Terry wogans ;)[/quote:3m3cjjpn]

I agree wholeheartedly, as though I said it myself. I like England too, but not a lot of its history. I'm very proud to be Irish though.

By the way, one of my older English cousins who's a doctor, did an evening degree in Celtic Studies with his wife a few years ago. But I don't really them that well and have never talked to them on that subject or anything about Ireland either.
 


garlandgreen

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It's actually an interesting question. If the union of England Scotland and Wales disolves where does that leave NI unionist ideology. Where do they go from there?
 

Combine

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garlandgreen said:
It's actually an interesting question. If the union of England Scotland and Wales disolves where does that leave NI unionist ideology. Where do they go from there?
If the UK falls a part they will most likely try for independance for the 6, even though they are only a majority in 2 of those 6.
 

derry_ff

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LTGuy said:
florin said:
...should Northern Ireland go with it?

Both sides can claim a greater historical and cultural affinity with Scotland than with England or Wales. NI would have 1/4 the population of the new state, as opposed to its tininess in the current UK.
What makes you think the Scotch would want that dump aka black hole in their midst? :shock:
If you have nothing civil to say, say nothing at all.
 

cgcsb

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Are you all high? Scotland is in economic deficit and static population growth. Both Scotland and NI are in the red financially. A better celtic tiger than the South ever had? Unlikely by the furthest stretches of the imagination. Also, if 45% of the voters in the North are nationalists, and only a small amount of Unionists would want such an arrangement and Scottish people wouldn't dream of such a thing, what makes people here think it would be possibe?
 

Greenandred

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There's no immediate prospect of Scotland seceding from the union;the SNP provides a minority administration, and unionist parties won a majority of seats in the last Scottish assembly elections.
 
S

Starkadder

Regarding Scottish Nationalism and Catholicism: Wasn't "Bonnie" Prince Charlie,who
fought for an independent Scotland, linked to the Jacobite/Catholic cause?
 

Jargongrad

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The reality is, if Scotland became independent and the Union collapsed Dublin would have more power than ever over the future of the north and England would probably try and find an agreement with Dublin about the future of the north. Unionists and Ulster-Scots would no doubt be left in turmoil if the Union ended, as what would they now be believing in? A Union that is confined to the history books?

The collapse of the Union furthers the hopes of a United Ireland in my opinion but it also furthers the possibility of bloodshed in the six counties.
 

drbob1972

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fergalr said:
Well it would probably put the Exchequer in the black permanently.
one would have thought it would have put it in the red not the black....
 

fergalr

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The British Exchequer? Without Scotland and N. Ireland to pay for, there'd be street parties in Whitehall.
 

Liverpoolblue

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Jargongrad said:
The reality is, if Scotland became independent and the Union collapsed Dublin would have more power than ever over the future of the north and England would probably try and find an agreement with Dublin about the future of the north. Unionists and Ulster-Scots would no doubt be left in turmoil if the Union ended, as what would they now be believing in? A Union that is confined to the history books?

The collapse of the Union furthers the hopes of a United Ireland in my opinion but it also furthers the possibility of bloodshed in the six counties.
If the union ended the Ulster Unionists would become the Ulster Nationalists or something similar. Their identity is linked more to a Northern Ireland state and their religion than the union.

Lb
 

Liverpoolblue

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Starkadder said:
Regarding Scottish Nationalism and Catholicism: Wasn't "Bonnie" Prince Charlie,who
fought for an independent Scotland, linked to the Jacobite/Catholic cause?
Bonnie Prince Charlie wanted the whole lot ie to be King of England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland like his ancestors. The Stuarts were mixed in their religion sometimes high C of E, sometimes RC. Bonnie Prince Charlie was more European than English or Scots, the Stuarts married into the nobility of different nations while in exile so the Bonnie Prince was only Scottish by ancestry. Would Britain have become catholic if he had won? I doubt it. The Bonnie Prince would probably have left the church alone his ancestors who didn't obsess with religion, James I and Charles II had successful reigns while Charles I and James II ruffled feathers and their reigns ended abruptly.

Lb
 

DAOINE

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Starkadder said:
Regarding Scottish Nationalism and Catholicism: Wasn't "Bonnie" Prince Charlie,who
fought for an independent Scotland, linked to the Jacobite/Catholic cause?
Yes he was. "Mo Ghile Mhear" is about him.
 

DAOINE

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Jargongrad said:
The reality is, if Scotland became independent and the Union collapsed Dublin would have more power than ever over the future of the north and England would probably try and find an agreement with Dublin about the future of the north. Unionists and Ulster-Scots would no doubt be left in turmoil if the Union ended, as what would they now be believing in? A Union that is confined to the history books?

The collapse of the Union furthers the hopes of a United Ireland in my opinion but it also furthers the possibility of bloodshed in the six counties.
Good point. Why would Sinn Fein or the SDLP agree a union with Scotland? They would get less from a Scottish Administration than the
British Parliament. There is also no way that all hues of unionism would agree to a union as well.Scotland would definitely not want Northern Ireland no matter how good relations are. This might result in a new round of bloodshed. In the unlikely event of Scotland seceding then Northern Ireland should be absorbed into the Republic.
 

DLR

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An Independent Scotland would not unite with N.I. Not in a million years. Why, pray tell?

- Because Scotland would be SECEDING from the UK, not taking bits with it.

- Because NI nationalists would veto it
...IF...
- it ever got through Scottish parliament in the first place, which it wouldn't.

- and Dublin wouldn't play ball.

NI may have much in common with Scotland, but there is the small matter of Irish identity in NI too.
A United Ireland, or independent NI are both more likely.
 

polito123

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Why is this even being discussed???

Is there even a remote possibility that this could happen?? No!

Some unionists in Ni might identify with Scotland, but do the scots identify with them??!!
 

AberdeenFC

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"Some unionists in Ni might identify with Scotland, but do the scots identify with them??!!"

In short the answer to this is NO! We are NOT interested in Northern Ireland, thank you.

Scots who vote for independence (solidarity, Greens, SSP and SNP) parties do tend to be protestant, but more and more catholics are believing in the independence movement too. Religion is less of an issue in Scotland vis a vis voting intentions than in NI. People from varying backgrounds vote for any one of the parties nationalist or unionist in hue.

Traditionally, Irish Catholic descended people have tended to vote for Labour. This is also changing slowly.

As far as the Orange thing is concerned. The majority of Scottish protestants do not support the OO or Glasgow Rangers and do not identify with that tradition. They are a nosiy minority, who don't have broad appeal across the whole country. It tends to be localised in poor west/central Scotland areas on the whole. The OO was popularised in their localities by Irish Protestants who settled in weaving communities at the same time as the Catholic Irish arrived in Scotland. There was a short period of hysteria in the 20's but this has largely settled down and the Catholic and Church of Scotland now get on well indeed and respect each other.

As far as the Queen - the SNP position is that she would be retained as head of state. She has this role in all other commonwealth countries which are independent of Britain. So, this is not incompatible position to being a sovereign independent state. (I personally favour republicanism).

Likelihood of Scottish Independence - long term, Yes. I think the Scottish Parliament will get more powers and may be in 10 years time full secession will occur.

There are another 44 years of oil left in Scottish waters (90% of reserves in North Sea) this will sustain in the first years a newly independent Scotland whilst it gets its house in order. Don't believe the subsidy junkie crap. That is unionist lies and myth. Ref: programme on BBC4 last night about the very subject. SCotland would be as rich as Norway.
 

ArtyQueing

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polito123 said:
Why is this even being discussed???

Is there even a remote possibility that this could happen?? No!

Some unionists in Ni might identify with Scotland, but do the scots identify with them??!!

yes - a lot of loyalists in west scotland do.
 

polito123

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ArtyQueing said:
polito123 said:
Why is this even being discussed???

Is there even a remote possibility that this could happen?? No!

Some unionists in Ni might identify with Scotland, but do the scots identify with them??!!

yes - a lot of loyalists in west scotland do.
You mean scummy Rangers fans :lol:
 


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