If you were 16,would you agree to Gardai request to buy alcohol without a gratuity?

loaded32

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I was just reading in the IT today that the Gardai&Minister aim to implement this new initiative to catch publicans seeling to minor's, by recruiting minors to go into certain pubs and off-licences to purchase alcohol.
There is a possibility, under law, that any prosecutions will mean that the minor would be required to attend the court hearing.
Seemingly parents have to provide consent for their child to "go undercover" ...oh and there is ZERO gratuity for these kids...unlike all the advisors and PR firms whom are paid millions each year for "assisting"

Would you agree to do this if you were 16 or if you are parent of a 16 year old would you agree for them to do it considering the above information?
 


fluffykontbiscuits

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I was just reading in the IT today that the Gardai&Minister aim to implement this new initiative to catch publicans seeling to minor's, by recruiting minors to go into certain pubs and off-licences to purchase alcohol.
There is a possibility, under law, that any prosecutions will mean that the minor would be required to attend the court hearing.
Seemingly parents have to provide consent for their child to "go undercover" ...oh and there is ZERO gratuity for these kids...unlike all the advisors and PR firms whom are paid millions each year for "assisting"

Would you agree to do this if you were 16 or if you are parent of a 16 year old would you agree for them to do it considering the above information?
Entrapment comes to mind...
 

adrem

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It's not entrapment - it's a good idea

I would probably skip the gratuity . . . . but I might skip out the back door of the Offie with me WKD in me bag and the Garda sitting outside the front door waiting for me !!
 

Ruaidhri

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I'm 16 and I honestly can't imagine any 16 year old in their right mind doing this. The vast majority of people that are 16 (including myself) drink. Why would they want to catch publicans out.
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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I'm 16 and I honestly can't imagine any 16 year old in their right mind doing this. The vast majority of people that are 16 (including myself) drink. Why would they want to catch publicans out.
If you got a couple of quid for it to buy your Dutch Gold you would be quick enough saying yes!
 

Fubsss

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Wow......just wow.

And here I am wondering if we could top Cowen and his genius interview or Lenihan attending that book launch (least he dropped out I guess).

This initiative strikes me simply as a stroke of pure and utter genius.
 

orbit

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It's not entrapment. They've worked out a "protocol" to ensure this. It's a laugh though a) that it hasn't been done before and b) that it is seen as something controversial (for different reasons).

I imagine that lawyers are sharpening their quills as we speak, looking for ways to weasel prospective clients out of it. I imagine it won't be hard to force the kids to have to testify. But, maybe a day off school to go to court is just the kind of gratuity they'd want.
 

Tommythecommy

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Why is it not entrapment?

It's not entrapment - it's a good idea

I would probably skip the gratuity . . . . but I might skip out the back door of the Offie with me WKD in me bag and the Garda sitting outside the front door waiting for me !!
Why is it not entrapment?

  1. A police officer encourages a person to commit a crime so that the officer can have him prosecuted for that crime.
  2. The greater the degree of entrapment by the police officer, the more likely the court will see it as entrapment. See the case R v Bryne [2003]. That is, entrapment is not a substantive defence (R v Sang); i.e. it does not automatically negate the prosecution case.
  3. Customs Officers who aid and abet fraud in order to prosecute the fraud. A notorious example of this occurred in 2003. The 'Stockade' prosecution ended in failure when the Court of Appeal quashed convictions against seven people accused in connection with the alleged diversion of £105 million in excise duty (VAT). The conduct of such Excise diversion cases resulted in the loss of up to £2 billion in public revenue.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment#England_and_Wales
 

locke

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It might appeal to a 16 year old who wants to join the gardai, but beyond that, I couldn't see the point in being arsed.
 

loaded32

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It's not entrapment. They've worked out a "protocol" to ensure this. It's a laugh though a) that it hasn't been done before and b) that it is seen as something controversial (for different reasons).

I imagine that lawyers are sharpening their quills as we speak, looking for ways to weasel prospective clients out of it. I imagine it won't be hard to force the kids to have to testify. But, maybe a day off school to go to court is just the kind of gratuity they'd want.
It is entrapment according to the book:

"Entrapment=To lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act."
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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It might appeal to a 16 year old who wants to join the gardai, but beyond that, I couldn't see the point in being arsed.
Confisticate the goods afterwards and back and have a knees up with some sexy bean garda? (Is there any?)
 

Tommythecommy

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Young people will simply use persons over 18 to buy their alchohol

Young people will simply use persons over 18 to buy their alchohol
 

orbit

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It is entrapment according to the book:

"Entrapment=To lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act."
The question is though whether it would be legal. It is a grey area all right. But, the wikipedia quote from above, seems to suggest it would be legal, since the kids aren't allowed to pretend to be older, or basically do anything other than just walk up and make a purchase. They wouldn't be allowed to use fake ID for example. Those would be situations that probably do cross the line, I think.

Probably a major question that would be raised, is whether "entrapment" like this (if that's what we're calling it) is one of the only practical ways to catch people committing these crimes. That may be debatable, but I think you can make a case for that.
 

Biffomania

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It might appeal to a 16 year old who wants to join the gardai, but beyond that, I couldn't see the point in being arsed.
Depends on how the Gardai spin it. 16 year olds might be interested if the Gardai tried the approach of "Look, son, this is how Taoiseach Cowen got started on his career, wouldn't you like to be like him?"
 

adrem

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Why is it not entrapment?

A police officer encourages a person to commit a crime so that the officer can have him prosecuted for that crime.
The answer to your question is within your own post - the police office is not encouraging the person to commit the crime they are checking whether the person commits the crime. If the police officer went into the offie/bar and suggested to the proprietor that they should go ahead and sell to the 16 year old then that would be entrapment because they had encouraged the commiting of a crime that they then prosecuted
 

loaded32

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The question is though whether it would be legal. It is a grey area all right. But, the wikipedia quote from above, seems to suggest it would be legal, since the kids aren't allowed to pretend to be older, or basically do anything other than just walk up and make a purchase. They wouldn't be allowed to use fake ID for example. Those would be situations that probably do cross the line, I think.

Probably a major question that would be raised, is whether "entrapment" like this (if that's what we're calling it) is one of the only practical ways to catch people committing these crimes. That may be debatable, but I think you can make a case for that.
To me, it sounds like a lazy/desperate way by the Gardai and Minister to try and enforce a law...just like many other laws which they are too lazy to enforce properly.

I cant actually believe that they have gone public with this, given how ridiculous it sounds and all the possible legal issues that are going to come about with this...
 

Dredger

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Entrapment comes to mind...
That is because it is entrapment. In England police have sent young females made up and dressed up to look older than they actually are.

Shop owner banned from selling alcohol after underage sting blames "children wearing short skirts and make-up"


Published on Fri Jun 11 17:05:13 BST 2010

The owner of a Northampton town centre off-licence has said she felt 'caught out' by a police sting designed to root out people selling alcohol to children.

Claudia Ifria is the owner of the Transylvania off-licence in Abington Square.

The shop has had its alcohol licence removed for a month after being caught selling alcohol to a minor on two separate occasions.

But Mrs Ifria said she felt the sting, which was organised by officers from Northamptonshire Trading Standatrds and the police, was unfair.

She said: "They sent in some girl who I believed was over 18, but she wasn't.

"But I think it's a bit unfair to send children into shops with lots of make-up on and wearing short skirts and things like that.

"I actually went after the girl after she left the shop and tried to ask her for her ID, but of course it was too late by then."

Despite being upset about the sting, the shop owner admitted breaking the law.

She said: "At the end of the day, it's the law and we have to abide by it.

"But I won't be closing the shop, just taking the alcohol off the shelves for a month from July to August.

"We'll still be selling all our ranges of Eastern European foods as normal."

The Crescent off-licence in Wellingborough Road was also handed a penalty by the borough council after being caught selling to children under 18 twice.
Shop owner banned from selling alcohol after underage sting blames "children wearing short skirts and make-up" - Local - Northampton Chronicle & Echo
 

locke

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Regardless of legality, is it ethical?

Or have we just given up bothering about things like that in Ireland?
 

Tommythecommy

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Inducing the commission of a crime to procure convictions?

The question is though whether it would be legal. It is a grey area all right. But, the wikipedia quote from above, seems to suggest it would be legal, since the kids aren't allowed to pretend to be older, or basically do anything other than just walk up and make a purchase. They wouldn't be allowed to use fake ID for example. Those would be situations that probably do cross the line, I think.

Probably a major question that would be raised, is whether "entrapment" like this (if that's what we're calling it) is one of the only practical ways to catch people committing these crimes. That may be debatable, but I think you can make a case for that.
Inducing the commission of a crime to procure convictions?

The hazard is that you might not have committed the crime were you not induced
 


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