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Illinois shootings: 5 slain in small town

Sparks

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People had muskets back then. It takes about 15 seconds to reload a musket. An M16 has a cyclic fire rate of 700–950 rounds/min
And can't be privately owned. You're confusing an AR-15 with an M-16. The difference is about 699-949 rounds per minute when you hold down the trigger.

(And when the bill of rights was written, they had repeating firearms with 20-round magazines firing fifty-calibre rounds at rates of fire that weren't too far off what you could do with an AR-15, but with far more lethality)
 


DuineEile

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And can't be privately owned. You're confusing an AR-15 with an M-16. The difference is about 699-949 rounds per minute when you hold down the trigger.

(And when the bill of rights was written, they had repeating firearms with 20-round magazines firing fifty-calibre rounds at rates of fire that weren't too far off what you could do with an AR-15, but with far more lethality)

Very interesting


Yawn.


D
 

drummed

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The new Hitch 22 has arrived.
 

truthisfree

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Fox "News" are a bunch of blithering idiots. Do they think Illinois is somehow closed off from the rest of the United States. FFS, it's not like as if their are border checkpoints at the state border to prevent the free flow of guns and ammo.
On December 11, 2012, these blanket restrictions were struck down as unconstitutional by a federal appeals court, which gave the state 180 days to change its laws.

Actually I think they got it right this time, they have very strict laws on weapons and do not recognise a cert to carry a weapon issued in another state, check my link above.
 

james5001

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And can't be privately owned. You're confusing an AR-15 with an M-16. The difference is about 699-949 rounds per minute when you hold down the trigger.

(And when the bill of rights was written, they had repeating firearms with 20-round magazines firing fifty-calibre rounds at rates of fire that weren't too far off what you could do with an AR-15, but with far more lethality)
Fair enough. Just shows how little I know about firearms, thankfully.
 

james5001

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james5001

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Some one on Pie who admits when they made a mistake, Are sure you should be on here James...??? :D (Kudos btw)
I was wrong on here once before. I think it was in response to merle haggard. I don't mind being wrong, once in a while.
 

Raketemensch

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If the idiot Americans want to slaughter one another like pigs every day who are we to stand in their way?
 

james5001

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Sparks

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I think we have more than 20,000 suicides per year, don't we?
Actually, I went and looked it up. We don't have decent EU-wide statistics for direct comparisons, but if you tot up the figures for each country you can get somewhat reasonable numbers, though you have to go back to 2006 for the widest coverage and make up one or two gaps with rates per 100,000 people. And then to compare directly, scale the EU numbers according to the population ratio between EU and US (we had 495 million, they had 305 million in 2006)

Basicly, we have the same number of suicides in the EU as in the US (more or less - they actually have slightly fewer than we do). But the methods are wildly different - guns are used a lot more in the US than here (a bit over five times as often). As far as suicide goes, then, the US isn't any different from the EU (and since means is irrelevant to suicide from the point of view of prevention, you could argue that for those 16-20,000 gun deaths per year in the US are not an example of a gun violence problem, but of a suicide problem - one which the US is actually better at than the EU is as they have fewer suicides).

The homicide rate is the surprising one - the US homicide rate is five times the EU rate. So yes, more gun homicides, but the deeper problem is that disparity in homicide rates. The US DoJ says two thirds of violent crime in the US is down to gangs; take out that source and we're far more comparable (the US still has more homicides than the EU but now it's by 40% more rather than 400% more).

So, judging by the numbers at least, the US's real problem isn't guns; it's gangs.

Country Population Gun Deaths Gun Homicides Total Homicides Gun Suicides Total Suicides
European Union 494.8 6002 1271 6085.5 4816 55410.9
EU @US size 305 3700 783 3751 2969 34156
United States 305 30896 12791 18573 16833 33300
 

Alan Alda

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Interesting to contrast this incident with the Boston madness , in terms of international media interest and security response.
 

Niall996

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Actually, I went and looked it up. We don't have decent EU-wide statistics for direct comparisons, but if you tot up the figures for each country you can get somewhat reasonable numbers, though you have to go back to 2006 for the widest coverage and make up one or two gaps with rates per 100,000 people. And then to compare directly, scale the EU numbers according to the population ratio between EU and US (we had 495 million, they had 305 million in 2006)

Basicly, we have the same number of suicides in the EU as in the US (more or less - they actually have slightly fewer than we do). But the methods are wildly different - guns are used a lot more in the US than here (a bit over five times as often). As far as suicide goes, then, the US isn't any different from the EU (and since means is irrelevant to suicide from the point of view of prevention, you could argue that for those 16-20,000 gun deaths per year in the US are not an example of a gun violence problem, but of a suicide problem - one which the US is actually better at than the EU is as they have fewer suicides).

The homicide rate is the surprising one - the US homicide rate is five times the EU rate. So yes, more gun homicides, but the deeper problem is that disparity in homicide rates. The US DoJ says two thirds of violent crime in the US is down to gangs; take out that source and we're far more comparable (the US still has more homicides than the EU but now it's by 40% more rather than 400% more).

So, judging by the numbers at least, the US's real problem isn't guns; it's gangs.

Country Population Gun Deaths Gun Homicides Total Homicides Gun Suicides Total Suicides
European Union 494.8 6002 1271 6085.5 4816 55410.9
EU @US size 305 3700 783 3751 2969 34156
United States 305 30896 12791 18573 16833 33300
Interesting. I wonder why the US has such a strong gang culture versus Europe. Is it just the classic case of the US being ahead of the rest of the world and that the gang culture over here will evolve similarly in time?
 

Sparks

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Interesting. I wonder why the US has such a strong gang culture versus Europe. Is it just the classic case of the US being ahead of the rest of the world and that the gang culture over here will evolve similarly in time?
I don't know - but we seem to be developing our own gang culture here, and we've quite rapidly become the "gun murder" capital of europe according to the media. It really does seem that when you get gang warfare going on in the streets, the statistics go nuts (and what else would you call it when the bomb squad is out every week defusing pipe bombs and we get gang shootings every few days?)
 

DuineEile

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Actually, I went and looked it up. We don't have decent EU-wide statistics for direct comparisons, but if you tot up the figures for each country you can get somewhat reasonable numbers, though you have to go back to 2006 for the widest coverage and make up one or two gaps with rates per 100,000 people. And then to compare directly, scale the EU numbers according to the population ratio between EU and US (we had 495 million, they had 305 million in 2006)

Basicly, we have the same number of suicides in the EU as in the US (more or less - they actually have slightly fewer than we do). But the methods are wildly different - guns are used a lot more in the US than here (a bit over five times as often). As far as suicide goes, then, the US isn't any different from the EU (and since means is irrelevant to suicide from the point of view of prevention, you could argue that for those 16-20,000 gun deaths per year in the US are not an example of a gun violence problem, but of a suicide problem - one which the US is actually better at than the EU is as they have fewer suicides).

The homicide rate is the surprising one - the US homicide rate is five times the EU rate. So yes, more gun homicides, but the deeper problem is that disparity in homicide rates. The US DoJ says two thirds of violent crime in the US is down to gangs; take out that source and we're far more comparable (the US still has more homicides than the EU but now it's by 40% more rather than 400% more).

So, judging by the numbers at least, the US's real problem isn't guns; it's gangs.

Country Population Gun Deaths Gun Homicides Total Homicides Gun Suicides Total Suicides
European Union 494.8 6002 1271 6085.5 4816 55410.9
EU @US size 305 3700 783 3751 2969 34156
United States 305 30896 12791 18573 16833 33300


Whoa.


Back up that National Rifle Association horse there Tonto.

40% difference is huge.


You can't just arbitrarily remove portions of US gun deaths, because it doesn't suit your argument.

There are gang killings by guns here too. The only valid point you make is about suicide, and those figures are ropey, as you say.

Ireland is not becoming the gun death capital of Europe. Frankly, any mid sized US city would have more gun deaths in a month than we do in a year.

How many gun deaths in US since Sandy Hook? Thousands?



D
 

james5001

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Sparks

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Back up that National Rifle Association horse there Tonto.
It's not an NRA horse, it's just the numbers on the back of an envelope.

40% difference is huge.
Yes, it's quite significant; but compared to 400%, it's not huge. It's at the level where the problem seems manageable, rather than insanely off the charts.

The point of the exercise, don't forget, wasn't to see exactly what's going on - you'd need studies for that, and they'd be a lot better than me spending two hours with a spreadsheet and a bunch of websites - it was just to see if anything jumped out at the order-of-measurement level. In other words, it's not an ordnance survey map, but yes, there's a mountain right in front of us.

You can't just arbitrarily remove portions of US gun deaths, because it doesn't suit your argument.
I'm not removing them; I'm saying that if we're looking at causes, is there anything that stands out even on the back of an envelope. Turns out there is. I wouldn't say this said anything more than the back of an envelope, but it's not entirely worthless either.

There are gang killings by guns here too.
Yes, but the level of gang activity in the EU is nowhere near the levels the US is trying to cope with.

Ireland is not becoming the gun death capital of Europe.
Hence the "according to the media" bit. Though we are seeing a rise in crime (gun and otherwise) and it's almost completely attributable to gangs.

Frankly, any mid sized US city would have more gun deaths in a month than we do in a year.
Most mid-sized US cities have more homicides - gun or otherwise - than we do as well, by an enormous and shocking margin; that was the point I was seeing from the back of the envelope.



Look, that back-of-an-envelope sketch shows two main things:
1) The US and EU have almost the same rates of suicide. So when you look at the gun deaths figures in the US, you have to remember that two-thirds of what you're looking at there, you see here every year at the same rate, just with a different means.

2) The US has five times the amount of homicide than the US does. Their stats say that two-thirds of that is down to gangs; the remainder of the homicides and the EU total of homicides are comparable, which suggests - but does in no way prove - that if the gang problem went away in the US, then their situation and ours would not be that different.

And those two things taken together suggest strongly that the problem the US has is not guns, but gangs.
 


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