IMF v Constitution

oddsox

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Oct 20, 2010
Messages
802
As in a lot of the posts here, most people agree that the Government is in denial about the economy and the state of the Country.With the IMF and the ECB on the doorstep today and with the English Government willing their help, our capacity to govern ourselves will be limited from now on.
My question is when the IMF try to clean up this mess that according to FF is not there, and if some of the solutions are;
1) the Dail is significantly reduced, 2) the retired TD's pension is reduced,
both of which I agree with should happen, what does this mean for the Irish Constitution ( TD's per population) and the pensions which the FF say reducing was unconstitutional, is there a mechanism there that allows these outside institutes to change without our consent?
 


corelli

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Jun 13, 2007
Messages
4,472
As in a lot of the posts here, most people agree that the Government is in denial about the economy and the state of the Country.With the IMF and the ECB on the doorstep today and with the English Government willing their help, our capacity to govern ourselves will be limited from now on.
My question is when the IMF try to clean up this mess that according to FF is not there, and if some of the solutions are;
1) the Dail is significantly reduced, 2) the retired TD's pension is reduced,
both of which I agree with should happen, what does this mean for the Irish Constitution ( TD's per population) and the pensions which the FF say reducing was unconstitutional, is there a mechanism there that allows these outside institutes to change without our consent?
No, is the simple answer. Anything presently prevented by the Constitution would require referendum to change.
 

TradCat

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Jun 5, 2005
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1,989
No the IMF don't do anything themselves. They just tell the government what to do. If there is to be constitutional change to reduce the Dail it is the government that will propose it and put it to a referendum if necessary. We can only hope the day comes.
 

GreenIsGood

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Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,536
No the IMF don't do anything themselves. They just tell the government what to do. If there is to be constitutional change to reduce the Dail it is the government that will propose it and put it to a referendum if necessary. We can only hope the day comes.

the FF crooks will try to negotiate with IMF to protect their own fat pay and pensions.

other than that, they don't give a f$ck.
 

oddsox

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Oct 20, 2010
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802
No, is the simple answer. Anything presently prevented by the Constitution would require referendum to change.
And if it goes to referendum with a new Government in place and if FF in opposition, revolt and organize their cumman and the gombeens to vote it down and the Gov lose what then,, no money, Everyone for themselves???????
 

olamp

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Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Messages
1,445
As in a lot of the posts here, most people agree that the Government is in denial about the economy and the state of the Country.With the IMF and the ECB on the doorstep today and with the English Government willing their help, our capacity to govern ourselves will be limited from now on.
My question is when the IMF try to clean up this mess that according to FF is not there, and if some of the solutions are;
1) the Dail is significantly reduced, 2) the retired TD's pension is reduced,
both of which I agree with should happen, what does this mean for the Irish Constitution ( TD's per population) and the pensions which the FF say reducing was unconstitutional, is there a mechanism there that allows these outside institutes to change without our consent?
There is nothing in the CONSTITUTION that says that Brian Cowen has to be paid more than the President of The United States!
 

Barnacle

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Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
854
As in a lot of the posts here, most people agree that the Government is in denial about the economy and the state of the Country.With the IMF and the ECB on the doorstep today and with the English Government willing their help, our capacity to govern ourselves will be limited from now on.
My question is when the IMF try to clean up this mess that according to FF is not there, and if some of the solutions are;
1) the Dail is significantly reduced, 2) the retired TD's pension is reduced,
both of which I agree with should happen, what does this mean for the Irish Constitution ( TD's per population) and the pensions which the FF say reducing was unconstitutional, is there a mechanism there that allows these outside institutes to change without our consent?
Reduction in TD's I think does need an amendment to the Constitution but I do not buy their argument that a reduction to the pension would be Unconstitutional.
 

roc_

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Dec 5, 2009
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6,369
It's likely well too late at this stage - but perhaps people should start making more noise about strengthening article 45 of our constitution. And taking action so that its provisions can be enforced in a court of law. Also, push for the provisions to be discussed in the Dail (they never are, regretfully).

* Justice and charity must inform national institutions.
* The free market and private property must be regulated in the interests of the common good.
* The state must prevent a destructive concentration of essential commodities in the hands of a few.
* The state should ensure efficiency in private industry and protect the public against economic exploitation.
* Everyone has the right to an adequate occupation.
* The state must supplement private industry where necessary.
* The state must protect the vulnerable, such as orphans and the aged.
* No one may be forced into an occupation unsuited to their age, sex or strength.
 

Panopticon

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May 27, 2009
Messages
5,575
It's likely well too late at this stage - but perhaps people should start making more noise about strengthening article 45 of our constitution. And taking action so that its provisions can be enforced in a court of law. Also, push for the provisions to be discussed in the Dail (they never are, regretfully).

* Justice and charity must inform national institutions.
* The free market and private property must be regulated in the interests of the common good.
* The state must prevent a destructive concentration of essential commodities in the hands of a few.
* The state should ensure efficiency in private industry and protect the public against economic exploitation.
* Everyone has the right to an adequate occupation.
* The state must supplement private industry where necessary.
* The state must protect the vulnerable, such as orphans and the aged.
* No one may be forced into an occupation unsuited to their age, sex or strength.
It's Catholic economic madness which the Supreme Court, correctly, refuses to implement. To take just one example, if national institutions were informed solely by "justice and charity", they could not reasonably get anything done because they would spend all their time giving heroin addicts more money our of "charity". And so on.
 

mickdotcom

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Sep 21, 2010
Messages
818
While the Govt may be right that there may be problems reducing the pay/pensions

of TD's - Ex TD's and general fat cats-

there is nothing legally to stop them imposing a tax of say 98% on the pensions /Pay of

TD's etc in receipt of 2 and more pensions.

They could also legally impose and adminsitrative charge of 2% on all such pay/pensions etc.
 

oddsox

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Oct 20, 2010
Messages
802
Our Constitution is terrible....got to take out all that Goddy stuff
:evil:Damn right;; Church and State; Holy water and Holy sh1t;
Dev thought that if he had the Church on his side he would not go to hell.



Just wondering what do other religions in Ireland think when they hear things like Catholic Ireland,, Land of saints and scholars,, must really p1ss them off?
 

THR

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Nov 15, 2006
Messages
1,010
Can anyone actually imagine someone voting in a referendum against reduction of the number of parliamentarians? Apart from politicians themselves of course?
 

kerdasi amaq

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Aug 24, 2009
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...the Supreme Court, correctly, refuses to implement.
The Supreme Court can only act, if someone brings a case. No case, no action by the Supreme Court.
 

kerdasi amaq

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Aug 24, 2009
Messages
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Without God, you have no rights, only privileges(which can be withdrawn or unilaterally amended) which "progressive" liberal scum think that you should have.
 

ocoonassa

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Oct 14, 2010
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6,124
How can the IMF even come in here without us having a referendum?
 

Oliver Moran

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Nov 18, 2010
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I had hoped to be able to post this message as a new thread. However, the content of this thread seems an appropriate location.

For the past few months, in press and online, there have been numerous discussions about poor national governance and the failings of our political system as underlying causes of the current crisis facing our state. Some of those have argued the need for wide-ranging constitutional reforms in order to address these issues and to make sure they do not happen again. Some have gone so far as to suggest that a new beginning in the form of a Second Republic is required.

The incredible events of the last few days, I think, have opened everyone's eyes to the absolute depths to which our state has sank. In response, I am extending a invitation for interested parties and persons to form a sustained, serious and credible campaign for wide-ranging political reforms in Ireland. That campaign is nascent, not predefined and starting from scratch. It is not related to any political party or movement. Its ultimate direction will be defined by its members.

If you are interested in participating, would like to find out more, or have comment to make, please visit www.2nd-republic.ie and sign up for the mailing list.

More information can be got by sending an email to info@2nd-republic.ie.
 

Scotlyn

Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
9
I want to petition the President to do her Constitutional Duty

I agree with Roc above, the government's whole banking strategy, starting with the bank guarantee in Sept 2008 and culminating in the deal with the IMF and EU, is in contravention of Article 45 of the constitution:
Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.2
iii. That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
iv. That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.3.2
The State shall endeavour to secure that private enterprise shall be so
conducted as to ensure reasonable efficiency in the production and distribution
of goods and as to protect the public against unjust exploitation.

Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.4.1
The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.​

I have launched an online petition to ask the President to use her constitutional powers to break the link between the welfare of the people of Ireland and the commercial interests and risks of private banks and their investors forged unlawfully by our government.

Many words have been said, now it is time to act.

Scotlyn
 

Padraigin

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Sep 22, 2006
Messages
628
The spin that the current government has been telling the media - that the debt enslavement deal a/k/a bailout - is a fait accompli and there is nothing anyone can do to block it is just another lie told by this government.

Is anyone suprised?

From the Irish Times:

Putting bailout to a Dáil vote
Madam, – In her article (Opinion, December 2nd), Sarah Carey implied that I and other legal commentators who have analysed the need for a Dáil vote on the bailout have blindly accepted Government positions and represent establishment figures.

These are serious allegations against any legal professional, particularly against a figure such as Prof Gerry Whyte, author of the inspiring book, Social Inclusion and the Legal System: Public Interest Law in Ireland.My own assessment is based on a fair and realistic view of prevailing legal precedents and existing judicial philosophies. I have clearly flagged that Government implementation of the IMF recommendations will be subject to constitutional challenge. The actions of the ECB will be subject to European Union law challenge.

I am immensely proud to belong to a legal academic community in Britain and Ireland which teaches our students to reflect critically on the law and to work for those marginalised in our society, such as the Travelling community, the poor, and all those who demand accountability from government. This work starts with a clear analysis of where the law stands, how it can be used to defend universal human rights, and making visible how it can fail these groups.

The IMF bailout is a political and economic policy, the very heart of my argument is that it is not irrevocable or cast in legal stone. – Yours, etc,

Dr DARREN O’DONOVAN,

Lecturer in Public International Law,

University College Cork.

The Irish Times - Letters


Obviously, the whole deal is on very shaky legal grounds when it facing a constitutionality challenge both in Ireland and in the EU.

The debt enslavement deal can be taken down. We just need to do it.
 

Pegasus1010

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
29
I agree with Roc above, the government's whole banking strategy, starting with the bank guarantee in Sept 2008 and culminating in the deal with the IMF and EU, is in contravention of Article 45 of the constitution:
Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.2
iii. That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
iv. That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.3.2
The State shall endeavour to secure that private enterprise shall be so
conducted as to ensure reasonable efficiency in the production and distribution
of goods and as to protect the public against unjust exploitation.

Bunreacht na hEireann, Article 45.4.1
The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.​

I have launched an online petition to ask the President to use her constitutional powers to break the link between the welfare of the people of Ireland and the commercial interests and risks of private banks and their investors forged unlawfully by our government.

Many words have been said, now it is time to act.

Scotlyn
Excellent post. It should be set up as a new thread.
 


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