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In a post-fact world: how do democratic liberals keep the ordinary decent folk from turning to demougues, racism and populism?

Congalltee

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Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,210
In a post-fact world: how do democratic liberals keep the ordinary decent folk from turning to demougues, racism and populism?

Putin is corrupt, but routinely has approval rates in the 70%.
Brexit wasn't supposed to happen and was sincerely opposed by English nationalists.
Trump's threat is increasing.
Erdogan is getting away with post-coup oppression.
FF could make a comeback.
Etc

A few questions:
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

2. The middle class, traditionally well educated and tending to liberalism, are increasingly being pursued as being squeezed. The mé féinism is palpable. What can lift the siege mentality?

3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc The opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?

4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a Muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the Islamic God is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of Islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with Islamic tradition eg Indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?

5. The Labour Party has gone to the wall, eaten up my its own sense of self-righteous arrogance. How can liberals, democratic socialists, progressives avoid that pitfall.

Edit:


6. A further challenge to the liberal left stem from right-wingers appropriating the language of equality and progressives.
Eg calling a homophobe homophobic is "shutting down debate"
Teaching diversity and tolerance in schools is "political indoctrination "
Protecting the "unborn" at the expense of the born is an equality and human rights issue.
Prosecuting incitement to hatred is censorship and oppressing free thought.
Promoting secularism in state funded schools is sectarian and undemocratic.
Liberals have closed minds and are prejudiced.
That type of sh1te!

7. Another challenge is the inability of many to honestly debate eg personal attacks, avoiding the issue, begging the question, middle ground of two extremes, and outright lies.

8. The first of these is not relevant. The second stat is bewildering. Truely mad that poor to low middle class think a billionaire with failed businesses - is emphatic with them.

More than a half of respondents (52 percent) say Trump has no bad intentions and is running for the presidency for the good of the country. Nearly half say he understands the problems ordinary Americans struggle with every day.

http://on.rt.com/7kip
 
Last edited:


Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449
Putin is corrupt, but routinely has approval rates in the 70%.
Brexit wasn't supposed to happen and was sincerely opposed by English nationalists.
Trump's threat is increasing.
Erdogan is getting away with post-coup oppression.
FF could make a comeback.
Etc

A few questions:
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

2. The middle class, traditionally well educated and tending to liberalism, are increasingly being pursued as being squeezed. The mé féinism is palpable. What can lift the siege mentality?

3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc The opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?

4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a Muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the Islamic God is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of Islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with Islamic tradition eg Indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?

5. The Labour Party has gone to the wall, eaten up my its own sense of self-righteous arrogance. How can liberals, democratic socialists, progressives avoid that pitfall.
Other than the patronising tone the major fault with that first point is that it is because of better education and access to alternative news sources that the world is becoming uncomfortable for the well padded orders who are terrified of the prols having a say in the running of their bubble.
 

Lúidín

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Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
7,402
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?
Facial massage might help but if the wincing continues, you could try opening your mind to a changing world and stop imagining your prejudices are widely held.
 

talkingshop

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Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
27,156
3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc The opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?
Did you ever think that people are in fact getting quite sick of identity politics, getting tired of hearing that there isn't apparently sufficient "equality" already for some minority group or other, and that further special measures are required for these groups?

That the very thing you apparently want more of, might actually be one of the things that is pushing people towards demagogues, etc.?
 

Congalltee

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Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,210
6. A further challenge to the liberal left stem from right-wingers appropriating the language of equality and progressives.
Eg calling a homophobe homophobic is "shutting down debate"
Teaching diversity and tolerance in schools is "political indoctrination "
Protecting the "unborn" at the expense of the born is an equality and human rights issue.
Prosecuting incitement to hatred is censorship and oppressing free thought.
Promoting secularism in state funded schools is sectarian and undemocratic.
Liberals have closed minds and are prejudiced.
That type of sh1te!

7. Another challenge is the inability of many to honestly debate eg personal attacks, avoiding the issue, begging the question, middle ground of two extremes, and outright lies.
 

niall78

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Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
11,285
This is (Fake) Labour sour grapes from the recent general election I presume.
 

Franzoni

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Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
16,469
. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

You could try asking a former leader of the Labour party who spent most of his adult life along with several of his colleagues espousing similar socialist policies supposedly for the betterment of people like myself......he also spent 14 years in opposition roaring and shouting about the political corruption inherent in the centre right parties ( and he was right) but soon as he got his arse in to a Merc and the position of Tánaiste during one of the worst crises to befall our state he did a legger and hid in the dept of Foreign Affairs ...

"The working class can kiss my arse i got the foremans job at last..." ..the new motto of the Labour party...
 

Gurdiev77

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2016
Messages
2,658
putin is corrupt, but routinely has approval rates in the 70%.
Brexit wasn't supposed to happen and was sincerely opposed by english nationalists.
Trump's threat is increasing.
Erdogan is getting away with post-coup oppression.
Ff could make a comeback.
Etc

a few questions:
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the internet to facts. But voting patterns (sf, aaa) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

2. The middle class, traditionally well educated and tending to liberalism, are increasingly being pursued as being squeezed. The mé féinism is palpable. What can lift the siege mentality?

3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc the opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?

4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the islamic god is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with islamic tradition eg indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?

5. The labour party has gone to the wall, eaten up my its own sense of self-righteous arrogance. How can liberals, democratic socialists, progressives avoid that pitfall.

hillary and tim
 

talkingshop

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Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
27,156
6. A further challenge to the liberal left stem from right-wingers appropriating the language of equality and progressives.
Eg calling a homophobe homophobic is "shutting down debate"
Calling people homophobes is very frequently used to "shut down debate".

Teaching diversity and tolerance in schools is "political indoctrination "
And it might well be, depending on what is being taught. Teaching kids e.g. that a transgender "woman" is a woman is clearly non-factual, and is essentially an ideological position.

Protecting the "unborn" at the expense of the born is an equality and human rights issue.
Pro-lifers have every right to claim it is a human rights issue - the fact that you say otherwise shows your own intolerance (i.e. your position on abortion is the correct one, the other side are de facto wrong).

Prosecuting incitement to hatred is censorship and oppressing free thought.
So it is - it should be sufficient to prosecute incitement to crime/violence. It's not the Government's business to tell people who they should like or not like.

Promoting secularism in state funded schools is sectarian and undemocratic.
If it is against the wishes of the majority, promoting it in pursuance of an ideology being pushed by a minority is clearly undemocratic.

Liberals have closed minds and are prejudiced.
That type of sh1te!
Yes, quite a lot of self-styled liberals have closed minds and are prejudiced.

You want to cure people turning to the likes of Trump by imposing further PC ideology on them? Good plan.
 

JCR

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
6,322
Putin is corrupt, but routinely has approval rates in the 70%.
Brexit wasn't supposed to happen and was sincerely opposed by English nationalists.
Trump's threat is increasing.
Erdogan is getting away with post-coup oppression.
FF could make a comeback.
Etc

A few questions:
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

2. The middle class, traditionally well educated and tending to liberalism, are increasingly being pursued as being squeezed. The mé féinism is palpable. What can lift the siege mentality?

3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc The opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?

4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a Muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the Islamic God is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of Islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with Islamic tradition eg Indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?

5. The Labour Party has gone to the wall, eaten up my its own sense of self-righteous arrogance. How can liberals, democratic socialists, progressives avoid that pitfall.
Having access to facts is not the same as being able to recognise what is factual. The exponential growth of self proclaimed experts who really haven't got a clue of what they are talking about but are utterly convinced they have things sussed is amazing.

Most people seem to go for the "facts" they like. The western world is fact becoming swamped by bullsh1t.
 

GDPR

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There is nothing particularly democratic or liberal about modern democratic liberals.
 

Congalltee

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Messages
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Having access to facts is not the same as being able to recognise what is factual. The exponential growth of self proclaimed experts who really haven't got a clue of what they are talking about but are utterly convinced they have things sussed is amazing.

Most people seem to go for the "facts" they like. The western world is fact becoming swamped by bullsh1t.
That is part of the problem alright.
Broadcasters dealing with a "debate" eg necessary steps dealing with climate change, feel there has to be an expert disputing climate change itself. They can make compelling arguments based on some evidence and present them as facts. No one comes out the wiser as the scientist/environmental activists has to deal with strawman arguments. One can readily find these "facts" online eg entering the words "is climate change" into Google adds the words "real" "a hoax" and "man made".

The other problem is eternal; the wise have doubts while the fool is certain.
 

Franzoni

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Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
16,469
There is nothing particularly democratic or liberal about modern democratic liberals.
Most if not all are spoofers

The whole premise of this thread is why won't the great unwashed just do what their told...
 

Rafael Rose

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Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
1,654
4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a Muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the Islamic God is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of Islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with Islamic tradition eg Indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?
There must be a goodly supply of LSD where you are, that's the funniest thing I've heard in ages.

Peaceful and democratic? You'd probably like it there as people get stoned on a regular basis. I particularly like the part where the muslim leader is explaining that many of the women pass out from the shame when being lashed, nothing to do with the pain. I'm sure the pain is just shame leaving the body right?

[video=youtube;jkmx-1CEVX0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmx-1CEVX0[/video]
 

Niall996

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
12,141
Putin is corrupt, but routinely has approval rates in the 70%.
Brexit wasn't supposed to happen and was sincerely opposed by English nationalists.
Trump's threat is increasing.
Erdogan is getting away with post-coup oppression.
FF could make a comeback.
Etc

A few questions:
1. We live in an age where poor working class are better educated than ever before and they have access via the Internet to facts. But voting patterns (SF, AAA) and online comments would make one wince. How can that change?

2. The middle class, traditionally well educated and tending to liberalism, are increasingly being pursued as being squeezed. The mé féinism is palpable. What can lift the siege mentality?

3. The marriage equality referendum showed a diversity whereby the working class had far greater tolerance than middle class ones. People were inspired and mobilised, but in the 12 months since there has been no great movement for including other groups, eg travellers, disabled, foreign born, mentally ill, homeless, non baptised children etc The opportunity of a general election resulted in a more conservative (and sincerely so) government. How can that liberal movement be harnessed?

4. After every loon gunman, there is an assumption a Muslim is involved. People seem unaware that the Islamic God is the same as the catholic one, or that there are numerous branches and sects of Islamic faith or that that there are many peaceful and democratic countries with Islamic tradition eg Indonesia. How can the 1% of our population be protected while secularism is promoted?

5. The Labour Party has gone to the wall, eaten up my its own sense of self-righteous arrogance. How can liberals, democratic socialists, progressives avoid that pitfall.
Your narrow old school put everyone into a narrow defined little box is such a dreary hangover from the past and the essence of so many problems. You need to get it and meet people. Or just stay in your debating society mentality.
 

Congalltee

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Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,210
There must be a goodly supply of LSD where you are, that's the funniest thing I've heard in ages.

Peaceful and democratic? You'd probably like it there as people get stoned on a regular basis. I particularly like the part where the muslim leader is explaining that many of the women pass out from the shame when being lashed, nothing to do with the pain. I'm sure the pain is just shame leaving the body right?

[video=youtube;jkmx-1CEVX0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmx-1CEVX0[/video]
I'm sure you're aware that Aceh is a semi-autonomous region, as opposed to representative of the State. But your point is correct; sectarian majoritarianism which leads to human rights abuses should be highlighted and opposed, whether it's stoning adulterers or denying 5 year olds access to schools because they weren't baptised. Locking up homosexuals for their sexuality is aborhant, as is detaining teenage mothers in laundries, while their children were illegally adopted. Denying pregnant women access to medical treatment which results in death because "this is a catholic country" won't be promoted by those describing themselves as "pro-life" and they would be appalled to be compared with the religious police of backward provinces. Many Islamophobes can't even see any validity in any exercise of comparison.
 
Last edited:

JCR

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Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
6,322
That is part of the problem alright.
Broadcasters dealing with a "debate" eg necessary steps dealing with climate change, feel there has to be an expert disputing climate change itself. They can make compelling arguments based on some evidence and present them as facts. No one comes out the wiser as the scientist/environmental activists has to deal with strawman arguments. One can readily find these "facts" online eg entering the words "is climate change" into Google adds the words "real" "a hoax" and "man made".

The other problem is eternal; the wise have doubts while the fool is certain.
The climate change example does sum it up to a degree. I remember talking to an engineer who manages very sophisticated projects for a technology company and he said with regard to climate change that "Normally I agree with them but I think the scientists have got it wrong this time".

So this guy who was utterly reliant on that same scientific technique and process to earn his living decided that climate change wasn't happening just because he was able to find people who would agree with him. We have mass confirmation bias and delusion on a disturbing scale. People don't look for information but rather come to the table armed with their truths and determined to walk away with those subjective truths intact - believing they have nothing to learn from the "other side".

I think there is the distinct sound of a screw loosening in the wests collective psyche now to be honest.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
Actually Erdogan might be a conservative within Turkey, but liberals in the West have not merely tolerated him, but feted him.

And the maFFia are the local franchise holder of the EP's liberal group.

In fact the maFFia are very liberal with the truth, with their promises, & with other people's money.
 

Polybius

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
4,606
The only people who talk about a "post fact world" are the establishment snobs who are terrified that the masses are no longer obeying them. The establishment have lied to the ordinary people for so long that the masses have correctly started to ignore them and vote for alternatives. Ordinary people have had enough of the bank bailouts, the political correctness, the mass immigration, the attacks on our national culture, and the growing inequality.
 


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