In Relative Terms, The British Empire's Defeat In Ireland Was Greater Than America's Defeat in Vietnam?

NMunsterman

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You have, unsurprisingly completely failed to grasp, and therefore respond to the point he made, which is hardy a surprise.

He pointed out that almost immediately Irelands hard fought independence was won, Ireland had a large & steady trail of immigration (mostly too Britain) that continues right up until this very day.

Most of it down to the policies of successive Irish governments, starting with those of De Valera.

Quite why you imagine your link mitigates that I don't know - but pretending it never happened is deluded.
1900 - Ireland was by far one of the poorest countries in Europe and Dublin was one of the largest slums in Europe.

2017 - Ireland is one of the most stable democracies and one of the most successful and wealthiest countries in the world.
 


Plebian

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You have, unsurprisingly completely failed to grasp, and therefore respond to the point he made, which is hardy a surprise.

He pointed out that almost immediately Irelands hard fought independence was won, Ireland had a large & steady trail of immigration (mostly too Britain) that continues right up until this very day.

Most of it down to the policies of successive Irish governments, starting with those of De Valera.

Quite why you imagine your link mitigates that I don't know - but pretending it never happened is deluded.



Hmm, Ireland's population was in freefall between The Famine and Independence. Exporting the population of Ireland was a British invention that'll never truly go away because even in the good times we're a country whose people have inherited itchy feet.
 

NMunsterman

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Hmm, Ireland's population was in freefall between The Famine and Independence. Exporting the population of Ireland was a British invention that'll never truly go away because even in the good times we're a country whose people have inherited itchy feet.
Stop being reasonable and bringing facts into the equation, FFS :)
 

General Urko

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1900 - Ireland was by far one of the poorest countries in Europe and Dublin was one of the largest slums in Europe.

2017 - Ireland is one of the most stable democracies and one of the most successful and wealthiest countries in the world.
More accurately - Ireland 2017 is a paradise on earth for insider rubbish and nax, while it is virtually an Apartheidal State for everyone else!:mad:
 
D

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In certain respects Ireland was a 5th world country with great aspirations to become a 4th world one!:rolleyes:
The United States lost in Vietnam as one vet put it to me, because essentially they were basketballers going over to play expert soccer players on the soccer player's home turf at soccer! Also and this applies to The British Imperial Forces in Ireland too, they weren't prepared to go the whole hog, in the case of The USA i.e. Neuclear or with the Britz, behave like the Nazis did with The Partisans!
There's no doubting the NVA's admirable fighting qualities, and military ingenuity, but the media campaign after the Tet offensive (which was a colossal NVA failure) was a bigger factor in US withdrawal from Vietnam.

British forces weren't prepared to go the whole hog because they'd just come out of a human abattoir. They probably weren't that bothered about Ireland, and if they'd wanted to, they could have just taken her at will. In fact I think Churchill had designs on invading during WW2 to gain access to the ports? He decided not to, I can't remember why?
 

diaspora-mick

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There's no doubting the NVA's admirable fighting qualities, and military ingenuity, but the media campaign after the Tet offensive (which was a colossal NVA failure) was a bigger factor in US withdrawal from Vietnam.

British forces weren't prepared to go the whole hog because they'd just come out of a human abattoir. They probably weren't that bothered about Ireland, and if they'd wanted to, they could have just taken her at will. In fact I think Churchill had designs on invading during WW2 to gain access to the ports? He decided not to, I can't remember why?
Apparently it was a matter of "restraint and poise" ... :lol:

"The sense of envelopment, which might at any moment turn to strangulation, lay heavy upon us. We had only the northwestern approach between Ulster and Scotland through which to bring in the means of life and to send out the forces of war. Owing to the action of Mr. de Valera, so much at variance with the temper and instinct of thousands of southern Irishmen, who hastened to the battlefront to prove their ancient valor, the approaches which the southern Irish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats.

This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr. de Valera or perish forever from the earth.

However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, we never laid a violent hand upon them, which at times would have been quite easy and quite natural, and left the de Valera Government to frolic with the German and later with the Japanese representatives to their heart's content."


http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/1945-05-13a.html
 

General Urko

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There's no doubting the NVA's admirable fighting qualities, and military ingenuity, but the media campaign after the Tet offensive (which was a colossal NVA failure) was a bigger factor in US withdrawal from Vietnam.

British forces weren't prepared to go the whole hog because they'd just come out of a human abattoir. They probably weren't that bothered about Ireland, and if they'd wanted to, they could have just taken her at will. In fact I think Churchill had designs on invading during WW2 to gain access to the ports? He decided not to, I can't remember why?
But coming out of a human abbattoir can develop a taste for blood too. Indeed many of the B and Ts were former Connacht Rangers who felt it was no unsafe to come back home in any normal sense and many of them would have been very seriously unhinged!
One of the major blocks for The Britz in going completely savage altogether in Ireland would have been world public opinion, in particular American Public opinion. The Deaths of Thomas McCurtain, Terrence McSweeney and Thomas Ashe would have been world news! The judicial murders of the 1916 rebels was greeted by a front page picture of all those killed with the headline 'Martyrs' on The New York Times!
 

General Urko

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The Vietnam War had a far superior soundtrack.
The Nordie conflict has produced a few good comedians and as usual the very best of them are unintentional ones!:rolleyes:
 

General Urko

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How ironic that Vietnam has turned into a state capitalist model very welcoming of Yankee Tourism and Investment, while our native ruling class rim the holes of their perceived betters and may have landed us a worse version of Ireland for ordinary Irish People than if we had stayed with The Britz!
 

NMunsterman

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Apparently it was a matter of "restraint and poise" ... :lol:

"The sense of envelopment, which might at any moment turn to strangulation, lay heavy upon us. We had only the northwestern approach between Ulster and Scotland through which to bring in the means of life and to send out the forces of war. Owing to the action of Mr. de Valera, so much at variance with the temper and instinct of thousands of southern Irishmen, who hastened to the battlefront to prove their ancient valor, the approaches which the southern Irish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats.

This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr. de Valera or perish forever from the earth.

However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, we never laid a violent hand upon them, which at times would have been quite easy and quite natural, and left the de Valera Government to frolic with the German and later with the Japanese representatives to their heart's content."


http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/1945-05-13a.html
Mick - would that be the same kind of "restraint and poise" displayed by the 90,000-strong British Army led by Lieutenant-General Arthur "Rabbit" Percival when surrendering to the 30,000-strong Japanese Army in Singapore in 1942 ?
 

General Urko

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Mick - would that be the same kind of "restraint and poise" displayed by the 90,000-strong British Army led by Lieutenant-General Arthur "Rabbit" Percival when surrendering to the 30,000-strong Japanese Army in Singapore in 1942 ?
As a younger Buck, Captain Percival was in Ireland and according to Nora Owen, was the bossman behind the burning down of a house belonging to one of Michael Collin's relations! What goes around. comes around!petunia
 

Toland

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It does seem a bit weird, though, that we get much more on the British media on their forced withdrawal from Africa, and their loss of India than their loss of most of the island of Ireland, though the consiervative side of British society seems to have a huge commitment to the symbolism of the three crowns and the four "home countries".

The rose, leek, shamrock and thistle and similar references were all over publications like Reader's Digest for many decades, and the harp and shamrock seems to be all over royal, parliamentary and civil service insignia. Yet the violent loss of most of Ireland from the Empire is not all that much talked about.

It does seem weird.
 

between the bridges

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The Vietnam War had a far superior soundtrack.
Pffft...

[video=youtube;rDLrZcsRC2E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDLrZcsRC2E[/video]
 

NMunsterman

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It does seem a bit weird, though, that we get much more on the British media on their forced withdrawal from Africa, and their loss of India than their loss of most of the island of Ireland, though the consiervative side of British society seems to have a huge commitment to the symbolism of the three crowns and the four "home countries".

The rose, leek, shamrock and thistle and similar references were all over publications like Reader's Digest for many decades, and the harp and shamrock seems to be all over royal, parliamentary and civil service insignia. Yet the violent loss of most of Ireland from the Empire is not all that much talked about.

It does seem weird.
It's called living in denial - you can see it from the postings of all the "super-Brits" on this Forum and their various musings along the lines of "oh, we'd easily have continued the occupation of Ireland if we wanted to" and "Irish independence was always part of our plan " and other delusional nonsense.
 

rainmaker

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Exporting the population of Ireland was a British invention that'll never truly go away because even in the good times we're a country whose people have inherited itchy feet.
So Irelands mass emigration of the second half the twentieth century, and again in the last decade or so, is put down to 'itchy feet' and not to the search for a better life - wow.
 

rainmaker

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Stop being reasonable and bringing facts into the equation, FFS :)
Like you, he didn't. He simply claimed Irish emigration in the second half of the twentieth century, including the period from the 1950s to the 1980s didn't exist and what little there was was down to itchy feet.
 
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diaspora-mick

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Mick - would that be the same kind of "restraint and poise" displayed by the 90,000-strong British Army led by Lieutenant-General Arthur "Rabbit" Percival when surrendering to the 30,000-strong Japanese Army in Singapore in 1942 ?
You'll have to ask Tom Barry about that ... :lol:
 


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