Independent Catalonia good, Brexit bad?

Erudite Caveman

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.

All four dismiss the independence movement as a distraction from more pressing social issues, claiming it has proved a useful smokescreen for the Catalan government’s spending cuts.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/red-belt-catalonia-labour-movement-referendum

“What’s happening now is that everyone has been told that Spain is the origin of our problems,” says Salas. “They are being fed a version of Catalan history that has nothing to do with reality and this has radicalised young people around independence.”
 


Windowshopper

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
I think to frame the independence movement as one of economics misses the issue entirely. Catalonia has its own language, culture and history, and to dismiss this as secondary betrays a technocratic mindset which is being steadily delegitimized since the crash.

We don't have an independence movement for Dublin or the Home Counties in England despite the subsidy
they pay to the rest of their countries. Why not? Because these regions identify themselves as belonging to their nation states.
 
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paddycomeback

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
Slow day? Prospect of a Republic too much for you?
 

Congalltee

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Comparisons don't work too well. One poster on the other thread considered the west's response to stopping genocide in the republic of Kosovo by Serbs to the failure of EU to comment on the Spanish police's heavy hand. The comparison is meaningless but whatever credibility he thought he had was blown when he denied Serbian/Milosovich's part in genocide, ethnic cleansing and war crimes.

Btw Catalonia has no chance of being recognised by the EU as an independent country so what will its exit from eu be called? Catalsortir? Cancellonia?
 

razorblade

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
The Catalans are a group with their own cultural identity they are fully entitled to self determination if they so wish.
 

wombat

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We don't have an independence movement for Dublin or the Home Counties in England despite the subsidy
they pay to the rest of their countries. Why not? Because these regions identify themselves as belonging to their nation states.
The main reason Ireland was partitioned is because the industrialised north east believed they would be better off remaining part of the UK than being governed by a semi independent govt based in Dublin.
 

Windowshopper

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The main reason Ireland was partitioned is because the industrialised north east believed they would be better off remaining part of the UK than being governed by a semi independent govt based in Dublin.
I think cultural and nationalist reasons played a part as strong a part. If Cork was the industrial heartland, I doubt that it would have been it the unionist hub, nor would the Protestants/British people in Ulster be anymore receptive to an independent Ireland.
 
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Angler

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The main reason Ireland was partitioned is because the industrialised north east believed they would be better off remaining part of the UK than being governed by a semi independent govt based in Dublin.
Nonsense.
 

Strawberry

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The main reason Ireland was partitioned is because the industrialised north east believed they would be better off remaining part of the UK than being governed by a semi independent govt based in Dublin.
That was in the mix but it was far from the main reason. Religious and tribal allegiances were the main reason why Irish Protestants largely wanted to stay in the UK and their heavier concentration in Ulster meant that by 1920ish it was the only part of Ireland they had any chance of holding on to. Go back to the 1800s and you'll find organisations like the Orange Volunteers all over Ireland threatening armed opposition to Home Rule.
 

mangaire2

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Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
"Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit?"

yes - there's a lot of difference.
 

Tribal

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Btw Catalonia has no chance of being recognised by the EU as an independent country so what will its exit from eu be called? Catalsortir? Cancellonia?
The more immediate problem for the EU is what to do with fracturing member states, Spain isn't alone in this.

Economically an EU regions already exists, now the politics is emerging to reflect this.

The challenge now is between Nations and their internal regions, Brexit has been viewed as a regional economic protest too.
 

petaljam

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Catalonia has its own language and is Spain's economic powerhouse. That's a big difference with Scotland for a start.

I'm not surprised the Spanish central government is terrified of Catalan independence, but the heavy handed approach they've used in the last few days can only make things worse.
 

Mercurial

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
I don't have a view on whether Catalonia should be independent, but I think it's clear that they should have the right to determine it for themselves.

Even Remainers agree that the UK should have the power to leave the EU if it really wants to.
 

Karloff

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This is coordinated with Brexit and other developments throughout Europe.
 

Strawberry

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Catalonia has its own language and is Spain's economic powerhouse. That's a big difference with Scotland for a start.

I'm not surprised the Spanish central government is terrified of Catalan independence, but the heavy handed approach they've used in the last few days can only make things worse.
Not that big a difference. Scotland also has its own language and is a net contributor to the UK exchequer.
 

rainmaker

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.

Sorry Erudite, but this is a non starter - the situations are chalk and cheese. As are the comparisons of others between today in Barcelona and the 1916 rising.
 

rainmaker

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although being in the eu but not a part of spain is a significant improvement.
Never going to happen. Look at the lengths Spain is willing to go to over a merely symbolic referendum - I think it's safe to say she would use her veto to keep an independent Catalonia out of the EU for a couple of decades at least.
 

petaljam

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Not that big a difference. Scotland also has its own language and is a net contributor to the UK exchequer.
Much as I'd like that to be true, it just isn't.

Gallic is barely hanging in there, how often could you use it in Edinburgh or Glasgow, never mind actually need it? Whereas Catalan is commonplace in Barcelona, and is used in the schools etc.

But more importantly, "net contributor" is a very different thing from "the economic powerhouse" for the entire country. Barcelona is closer to the Home Counties in terms of contribution to the economy than it is to Scotland. The oil is gone - stolen by the English if you like, but gone - and anyway what's left is claimed by the Islands which would not hesitate to put forward their own claims to autonomy/independence from Scotland if Scotland was ever getting its independence from the UK.
 


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