Independent Catalonia good, Brexit bad?

Breanainn

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Self-serving local politicians scapegoating the large political union to which they belong? Token symbolic changes being used to drum up nationalism? Selling the prospect of a future that doesn't fit with reality?

Is there really much difference between the base motives driving the Catalan independence drive and that of Brexit? Unlike say Scotland, if it bids for independence within the EU post-Brexit, Catalonia is simply pitching for no real change beyond warm fuzzy feelings and symbolism driven by a resentful nationalism.
There's the fact that the Catalan government is committed to becoming an EU member upon independence, for one.
 


redneck

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In the Brexit referendum, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the capital London, all voted to remain in the EU.
 
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statsman

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Btw Catalonia has no chance of being recognised by the EU as an independent country so what will its exit from eu be called? Catalsortir? Cancellonia?
Fot el camp.
 

Analyzer

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Actually, the Catalunya separatist movement is similar to the Flemish separatists.

And Brussels is extremely concerned about that because it could result in Brussels being in a rather embarrassing geographical location.
 

Filibuster

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The biggest difference is the UK voted to join the EU and when it voted to leave the EU, the EU said : grand, let’s figure out an exit plan.
Sure there’s a bit of disagreement about a few things but at absolutely no stage did anyone ever suggest marching into British cities and quashing the vote!

In fact, even though the British Government hadn’t formalised anything or initiated the Article50 procedures the EU recognized the referendum outcome and began the preparations.

The EU is a voluntary sharing of power by member states.
Spain is a historical country that has regions that aren’t entirely keen on being part of it.

Difference couldn’t be more stark
 

Se0samh

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Actually, the Catalunya separatist movement is similar to the Flemish separatists.

And Brussels is extremely concerned about that because it could result in Brussels being in a rather embarrassing geographical location.
:D
 

Filibuster

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Actually, the Catalunya separatist movement is similar to the Flemish separatists.

And Brussels is extremely concerned about that because it could result in Brussels being in a rather embarrassing geographical location.
It’s hard to know. Belgium is a bit like an old divorced couple who share the house, hate each other and have new partners but occasionally get drunk and accidentally end up in bed together.

The have this weird dysfunctional relationship that somehow still sort of works in a way that could only happen in Belgium.

If Belgium split in two it would be a very uneventful day and would probably just look and function more or less the same as it does now. There isn’t really a big powerful slightly imperial state anymore to fight with.

The big issue would be who gets Brussels. I would suspect Brussels would probably end up as a Luxembourg like city state. It has its own identity and has largely been the one caught in the middle of all the arguments between Wallonia and Flanders over the years

I would suspect if Belgium broke up it would just be a sort of “meh” moment.

None of that is any attempt to slag off the Belgians but there just a bit too pragmatic these days to have any kind of serious fight.

If Belgium breaks up it is very unlikely to be anything to do with Spain but maybe more to do with a scenario like being completely unable to form a federal government for several years and just going : le meh / het meh / das meh and declaring they’re now technically separate.
 
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midlander12

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The biggest difference is the UK voted to join the EU and when it voted to leave the EU, the EU said : grand, let’s figure out an exit plan.
Sure there’s a bit of disagreement about a few things but at absolutely no stage did anyone ever suggest marching into British cities and quashing the vote!

In fact, even though the British Government hadn’t formalised anything or initiated the Article50 procedures the EU recognized the referendum outcome and began the preparations.

The EU is a voluntary sharing of power by member states.
Spain is a historical country that has regions that aren’t entirely keen on being part of it.

Difference couldn’t be more stark
You're right in that certainly no on suggested trying to stop the Brexit referendum, though obviously no such possibility existed anyway. However, there have been numerous suggestions (including by posters on this site who would otherwise portray themselves as 'liberals' and even 'nationalists') that the issue was far too complicated to be put to the electorate in such a binary way, that ordinary people do not understand complex economic issues, and that therefore the British establishment should never have allowed the referendum to happen.

Exactly the same arguments could I presume be made about the Catalan vote, the Scottish referendum or any future NI 'border poll'. I don't accept these arguments. Ultimately every issue has to come down to a binary YES or NO, and it is up to the relevant political classes to accept the result and try to honour it as best they can.
 

londonpride

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Nothing good is going to come from this Catalonian experiment. Next the Basques will want independence
War in Europe is the only outcome.
The rise of the Far Right is happening everywhere
The days of Poofy liberalism is nearing its end . Too much freedom without responsibility is destroying European nations .
 

londonpride

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The only nation that supports all this division in Europe is Russia and they will retake Latvia Estonia and Lithuania and even eastern Poland at the first opportunity.
Why i wonder do we not see the Liberal leftie demonstrators on the streets railing against this Kim jon un and Putin who are the biggest threat to life on Earth and yet look at how they demonstrated against Donald Trump.
 

Windowshopper

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Nothing good is going to come from this Catalonian experiment. Next the Basques will want independence
War in Europe is the only outcome.
The rise of the Far Right is happening everywhere
The days of Poofy liberalism is nearing its end . Too much freedom without responsibility is destroying European nations .
We had one poster claim that Catalonia is going to be a far left failure and now you're linking it to the far right, the main independence is essentially Fianna Fáil.
 

Ardillaun

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Nothing good is going to come from this Catalonian experiment. Next the Basques will want independence
War in Europe is the only outcome.
The rise of the Far Right is happening everywhere
The days of Poofy liberalism is nearing its end . Too much freedom without responsibility is destroying European nations .
If countries prepared properly, questions of secession could be handled in a mature and peaceful fashion, allowing regions to decide their own future in a referendum after a full debate that brought out the costs and benefits of independence. Spain has chosen not to do that and now may face the consequences.
 

Ardillaun

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The only nation that supports all this division in Europe is Russia and they will retake Latvia Estonia and Lithuania and even eastern Poland at the first opportunity.
Why i wonder do we not see the Liberal leftie demonstrators on the streets railing against this Kim jon un and Putin who are the biggest threat to life on Earth and yet look at how they demonstrated against Donald Trump.
The best way to fight Putin is not by suppressing reasonable debates about independence in Europe.
 
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redneck

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The future of Europe and the World incidentally is the City state.
In other words the end of the Nation state. Take here for example. Ireland is really Dublin. Dublin has 2 million of the population and dwarfs Cork, Limerick and Galway. To me Wicklow is just South Dublin, Kildare- West Dublin and Meath, North Dublin. Ireland is to all intents and purposes Dublin!
Likewise the UK will end up with different regions:
London, Manchester, Glasgow/Edinburgh and Cardiff.
 

redneck

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The city state held sway in Europe in the middle ages. There was no real countries.
 

Erudite Caveman

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Catalans are absolutely entitled to self-determination. But simply having a language (and one that isn't even your primary language) isn't a reason in itself for political change. It is an irrelevance, and nothing more than a vehicle for nationalistic symbolism rather than something that fundamentally touches peoples lives.

I have no issue with Catalonia seceding from Spain if there is a logical reason for it that can be stood up without resorting to inward-looking and base nationalism. Because I'm not getting the vibe there is much more too it, anymore than can be found in to be the basis for Brexit. For example, the idea that the EU will a new Catalonia, is as fanciful and dangerous as any lie peddled by the Brexiteers.
 

Ardillaun

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The future of Europe and the World incidentally is the City state.
In other words the end of the Nation state. Take here for example. Ireland is really Dublin. Dublin has 2 million of the population and dwarfs Cork, Limerick and Galway. To me Wicklow is just South Dublin, Kildare- West Dublin and Meath, North Dublin. Ireland is to all intents and purposes Dublin!
Likewise the UK will end up with different regions:
London, Manchester, Glasgow/Edinburgh and Cardiff.
What did Birmingham ever do to you?
 


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