Independent Catalonia good, Brexit bad?

Trainwreck

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So do you believe Catalonia should never be allowed to leave Spain? I just feel there needs to be a way of letting regions go that does not involve bloodshed.
Where is the line drawn for national secession generally?

What about a single region of Catalonia? Should they be allowed to unilaterally secede from Catalonia? A village, a street, a household?

Leinster wants to unilaterally secede from Ireland? Should that be accepted?
 


Fr Peter McWhinger

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Where is the line drawn for national secession generally?

What about a single region of Catalonia? Should they be allowed to unilaterally secede from Catalonia? A village, a street, a household?

Leinster wants to unilaterally secede from Ireland? Should that be accepted?
The Dort Tribe and Territory may wish to secede form the rest of Ireland given that they are not co-cultural with the rest of Ireland having different Language, Cultural Values, and their economy being different to much of Ireland.
 

Jimmy Two Times

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You seem determined to clumsily shoehorn the UK into this.



They can want it all they want. It's not a case of any of us arguing it - those who will stand in her way are the Spanish, the Belgians, and in all likely hood the Italians.

Sh is also many years away from meeting the economic convergence criteria for Euro adoption.
Why would the Belgians and Italians veto Catalan membership of the EU
 

rainmaker

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Why would the Belgians and Italians veto Catalan membership of the EU
Because they have separatist regions of their own - they could hardly be seen rewarding Catalan independence while refusing their own.
 

JohnD66

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Good article here by Paddy Woodworth.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...to-the-hands-of-catalan-nationalism-1.3240965

The referendum was illegal as it stands, not only by the Madrid government's lights but also in the judgement of the Catalan Supreme Court. On top of that, the turnout was 42% of whom 90% voted 'yes', meaning that only about 38% of the Catalan electorate voted for secession. Which under any normal standard, would not be enough of a mandate to declare independence (cue the arguments about the 1918 election in Ireland, but let's leave that aside for now).

So in my view, declaring independence now would be illegitimate.

Having said that, ultimately, if the Catalans, in the existing, recognised, autonomous community, want to break away from Spain, or significant part of them do, then they really should have the right to vote on that. The Spanish government should enable that in the same was as the UK government did in Scotland. Prior to yesterday it sounds like they might well have won the vote.

But the approach of the governing Partido Popular has been almost incredibly self-defeating. Using the courts to block changes in the statute of autonomy, leading a boycott on Catalan produce at one point (when they were in opposition) and now sending in the police to beat up people voting in the referendum.

If you actually wanted to encourage the break up of Spain and to show it, as minority nationalists perceive it, as an oppressive state, I don't think you could do any better than Rajoy has done over this weekend.

If the pig-headedness on both sides continues and Catalan president Puigdemont declares independence, then we are entering a really dangerous situation, in which two sides try to impose rival claims of sovereignty on the same territory. I hate to even say it, but there is only one way in which such things are decided and that is by the use of force.
 

Jimmy Two Times

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Where is the line drawn for national secession generally?

What about a single region of Catalonia? Should they be allowed to unilaterally secede from Catalonia? A village, a street, a household?

Leinster wants to unilaterally secede from Ireland? Should that be accepted?
Gibberish from brainwreck as per usual
 

Jimmy Two Times

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Because they have separatist regions of their own - they could hardly be seen rewarding Catalan independence while refusing their own.
Belgium has has two distinct regions and Italy was a few regions that were cobbled together at the end of the19th century. I haven't heard though of regions in those countries looking for Referenda to seek Independence. That sort of scaremongering was used in the run up to the Scottish Referendum that they wouldn't have been able to access the EU due to veto from Spain etc., but then the English dragged them out of Europe with that Brexit bullshít anyway.

If the Catalans want Independence they should push for it and ignore the scaremongering nonsense. Also if they secure their Independence the rest of the EU should allow them to be in the EU and tell the Spanish to fúck off with their veto. The rest of the EU needs to stand up to the Spanish PP government who are behaving like a bunch of fascists.
 

Ardillaun

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Where is the line drawn for national secession generally?

What about a single region of Catalonia? Should they be allowed to unilaterally secede from Catalonia? A village, a street, a household?

Leinster wants to unilaterally secede from Ireland? Should that be accepted?
The line is not defined but is certainly moving down. We have a lot more countries now than we had fifty years ago and some are city states. No streets or individuals yet, although it would not surprise me to see the tax lawyers come up with something along those lines. The proposed territory has to be viable and preferably not surrounded by the country it wishes to secede from. An existing regional government would be a good sign.

If it were the settled will of Leinster to go, I would say yes.
 

rainmaker

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Belgium has has two distinct regions and Italy was a few regions that were cobbled together at the end of the19th century. I haven't heard though of regions in those countries looking for Referenda to seek Independence. That sort of scaremongering was used in the run up to the Scottish Referendum that they wouldn't have been able to access the EU due to veto from Spain etc., but then the English dragged them out of Europe with that Brexit bullshít anyway.

If the Catalans want Independence they should push for it and ignore the scaremongering nonsense. Also if they secure their Independence the rest of the EU should allow them to be in the EU and tell the Spanish to fúck off with their veto. The rest of the EU needs to stand up to the Spanish PP government who are behaving like a bunch of fascists.
You really haven't looked hard enough - it's been a growing issue for decades.

Rattled by Attacks, Many Belgians Still Want Nation Split in Two
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/...s-still-want-nation-split-in-two.html?mcubz=1

Belgium divided as Flanders pushes for a messy divorce
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/alexduvalsmith.theobserver

Not Just Catalonia: 3 More Places With Dreams of Independence
Flanders
Belgium’s largest political party—the center-right New Flemish Alliance—is actually a secessionist movement, highlighting just how fragmented Belgian politics really is.
http://time.com/4963163/catalan-kurds-referendum-independence/
 
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