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Integration


jetttxyz

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
862
Bertie was right in identifying integration as the single, most important issue that will face us in the coming years.

Paddy O'Gorman was on Pat Kenny's show today; and commented that Ken Livingstone was wrong in portraying the Irish, and Pakistanis, as successful integration examples, in London. O'Gorman thought these two were the least integrated of all nationalities, in England!

I go along with that. Here, the Indians and Pakistanis are the least integrated. They do not partake in the local culture and tradition; and bring in spouses from their country of origin. The UK has many examples of this ghettoisation of cities. It's got so acceptable that British political parties now choose their candidates to reflect this non-integration.

We must not allow this to happen here.

To add to this, the Irish Times of today, carries a statement from a Muslim leader "crriticising religious bias in Ireland" because he says "he lived 20 metres away from a primary school, yet it could not accept his Irish-born son because he was not a Catholic".

Is he aware that the Muslim school in Clonskeagh will not accept non-Muslim kids?

There should be no faith-based schools here. The Archbishop of Dublin has made several statements in favour of non-faith based schools and he should be given support.

Separate a kid in school and you'll separate him/her for life.
 

jjacollins

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
64
Couldn't agree with you more.

London is often lauded as a multicultural city, when in fact no one culture mixes with the others except at bus stops and in the queue at Sainsbury's etc.

I have seen things change so much culturally in London over the last 20 years that it's almost unrecognisable anymore.

There is no real English culture in london. Everything is ghettoised. what White londoners there are are mimicing low class Black ganster culture. With their car steros blaring and wearing nothing but track suits. I'm sad that some fools in Ireland are copying them as some sort of Ali G injoke gone bad.

In realation to Religion, Muslims are really asserting themselves and I see it especially in Ireland with many media stories about them wanting to build mosques etc. We all know that simillar rights would not be extended in their countries.

Some say that they are doing this to wind us up, that they know that it's not right to be pushing their religion in our faces with buildings that are completely at odds with our culture and designs and with them wanting to have loud speakers on the top of mosques.

It brings one back to the old but true statement, when in rome do as the romans do.

They simply don't agree with this or wish to ignore the sentiment of it and plough ahead with their making themselves fully at home, despite the loacl culture, agenda.

I feel that the State should respond just as the French have done and espouse proper republicanism and ban all religion from public schooling.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,992
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
Integration and immigration-controls - not multiculturalism - are the key sto a successful immigration policy. An assimilationist policy is needed - this has worked relatively well in the US. It's irritating to hear some on the liberal side on immigration combine comparisons with Irish emigration to the US with opposition to US style measures like compulsory health-screening and citizenship-tests. Its seems they want to have their cake and eat it.

The right to vote in Dáil elections should only be allowed to Irish citizens. In that respect I strongly disagree with Conor Lenihan's notions of handing it to every EU citizen here for five years. It's a source of comfort to me that he admits this has not yet been discussed at Cabinet. Hopefully it will be shot down like it seems to have been some months ago. To grant Dail voting rights to all and sundry removes a crucial element of a successful integration-strategy - namely the incentive of voting rights in return for integrating and becoming an Irish citizen. If Irish citizenship does not come with intrinsic rights, then the point of there being something called "Irish citizenship" becomes highly questionable.

People with Irish ancestory should be given a more fast-tracked form of citizenship. I was concerned by the recent case of an Irish-American woman who faces possible deportation. Clearly as someone of Irish ancestory, like many Irish-Americans and being English speaking we have little to fear from granting her citizenship. In any case she is a Westerner and as such cases like hers do not come with the same risks of causing a mass-influx on a copy-cat basis.

For other people, we need citizenship-tests, including the requirement to learn a certain amount about Irish history and values like democracy and freedom of speech. An oath of allegiance to the Irish State should be a requirement for Citizenship. We need to give real meaning to the constitution's provisions linking citizenship with fealty. Those non-nationals who engage in terrorist offences against the State or violent crime deserve to lose their Irish citizenship, as they have shown they are disloyal to Irish society. We also need a ban on ethnic-based parties. Otherwise we may be setting the stage for the polarisation of Irish politics along ethno-religious grounds.
 

Thac0man

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Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
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By and large I agree with the points in your post Jettxyz, except for this:

Paddy O'Gorman was on Pat Kenny's show today; and commented that Ken Livingstone was wrong in portraying the Irish, and Pakistanis, as successful integration examples, in London. O'Gorman thought these two were the least integrated of all nationalities, in England!
It is my experience that the Irish in London are integrated. That said there is and always will be a floating level of Irish who are not or will not ever settle in England. But by and large those who chose to make a life in London during the 50's and 60's have mostly lost all trace of their Irish roots and fully integrated. Paddy O'Gormons comments reveal himself to be someone who is entirely unfamiler with the changed ethnic dynamic or London or the history of Irish Imigration and integration there.
 

Bobert

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Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,072
Where I live, an invitation was extended to the Polish community to have a float in this years St. Patrick's Day parade. They declined.

In saying that, two years ago we had a black St. Patrick. It worked well I thought.

So, I think it's up to themselves over integration. If they want it, they shall have it.
 

DaBrow

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
416
Thac0man said:
By and large I agree with the points in your post Jettxyz, except for this:

Paddy O'Gorman was on Pat Kenny's show today; and commented that Ken Livingstone was wrong in portraying the Irish, and Pakistanis, as successful integration examples, in London. O'Gorman thought these two were the least integrated of all nationalities, in England!
It is my experience that the Irish in London are integrated. That said there is and always will be a floating level of Irish who are not or will not ever settle in England. But by and large those who chose to make a life in London during the 50's and 60's have mostly lost all trace of their Irish roots and fully integrated. Paddy O'Gormons comments reveal himself to be someone who is entirely unfamiler with the changed ethnic dynamic or London or the history of Irish Imigration and integration there.
I wouldn't state that for the Irish for the Whole of the UK to be honest, there are thousands of Irish Emigrants who live in Sqaulor these are people who actually built britain and they recieve no gratitude.

An Irish Contingent of British Army Veterans were snubbed back in November....... If that's Succesful Integration and Gratitude from Britain I'm curious what segregation is like.

I lived in the UK and sadly I look on most British People who have Irish Descent with Shame: The vast majority are so ignorant of their background it saddens me.

There are of course many English-Born Irishmen who deserve our gratitude but the Diaspora Children who really Treasure their roots are in the Americas and Australiasia.
 

imokyrok

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
4,507
FutureTaoiseach said:
Integration and immigration-controls - not multiculturalism - are the key sto a successful immigration policy. An assimilationist policy is needed - this has worked relatively well in the US. It's irritating to hear some on the liberal side on immigration combine comparisons with Irish emigration to the US with opposition to US style measures like compulsory health-screening and citizenship-tests. Its seems they want to have their cake and eat it.

The right to vote in Dáil elections should only be allowed to Irish citizens. In that respect I strongly disagree with Conor Lenihan's notions of handing it to every EU citizen here for five years. It's a source of comfort to me that he admits this has not yet been discussed at Cabinet. Hopefully it will be shot down like it seems to have been some months ago. To grant Dail voting rights to all and sundry removes a crucial element of a successful integration-strategy - namely the incentive of voting rights in return for integrating and becoming an Irish citizen. If Irish citizenship does not come with intrinsic rights, then the point of there being something called "Irish citizenship" becomes highly questionable.

People with Irish ancestory should be given a more fast-tracked form of citizenship. I was concerned by the recent case of an Irish-American woman who faces possible deportation. Clearly as someone of Irish ancestory, like many Irish-Americans and being English speaking we have little to fear from granting her citizenship. In any case she is a Westerner and as such cases like hers do not come with the same risks of causing a mass-influx on a copy-cat basis.

For other people, we need citizenship-tests, including the requirement to learn a certain amount about Irish history and values like democracy and freedom of speech. An oath of allegiance to the Irish State should be a requirement for Citizenship. We need to give real meaning to the constitution's provisions linking citizenship with fealty. Those non-nationals who engage in terrorist offences against the State or violent crime deserve to lose their Irish citizenship, as they have shown they are disloyal to Irish society. We also need a ban on ethnic-based parties. Otherwise we may be setting the stage for the polarisation of Irish politics along ethno-religious grounds.
I find this attitude incomprehensible. Giving one person rights above another based on the patch of ground their granddad was born on 60 years ago makes no sense to me. We need to rise above evolutionary in group out group mentalities if the six billion people on this planet are to have any chance of living in peace.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,992
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
find this attitude incomprehensible. Giving one person rights above another based on the patch of ground their granddad was born on 60 years ago makes no sense to me. We need to rise above evolutionary in group out group mentalities if the six billion people on this planet are to have any chance of living in peace.
I disagree. Just as American Jews are very loyal to Israel, people of Irish descent for whom it is a big part of their identity can be relied on more to be loyal to Ireland. I'll keep my "group mentality" thank you very much. I am Irish first and a citizen of the world second.
 

imokyrok

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Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
4,507
FutureTaoiseach said:
find this attitude incomprehensible. Giving one person rights above another based on the patch of ground their granddad was born on 60 years ago makes no sense to me. We need to rise above evolutionary in group out group mentalities if the six billion people on this planet are to have any chance of living in peace.
I disagree. Just as American Jews are very loyal to Israel, people of Irish descent for whom it is a big part of their identity can be relied on more to be loyal to Ireland. I'll keep my "group mentality" thank you very much. I am Irish first and a citizen of the world second.
Ethnocentrism can be a very slippery slope indeed as Jews found out to their cost in Germany. If national chauvinism is a preference should ethnic nationalism take precedence over civic nationalism?
 

dub006

Active member
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
212
Deportation not integration is the solution to a successful immigrant policy.
If those who came here illegally such as the thousands of nigerian fraudsters were deported we could talk of integration in the context of an immigration policy.

as there is so much anarchy and lawlessness associated with immigration into Ireland any government policy which fails first and foremost to deport all these scam artists is doomed to failure.

as this is currently the case what we really need is a fascist government as they have now in Rome to aggressively take on the armies of rascist foreigners who came here illegally.a suspension of acccess to the courts would be the first thing a fascist government should bring in .Mandatory testing for diseases.The exclusion of all third world immigration.

Our schools would be freed up,our health service would improve and we could start to breathe again instead of living in fear of the future.
 

Conor

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,206
dub006 said:
a suspension of acccess to the courts would be the first thing a fascist government should bring in .
It quite possibly would be.

I wonder, how many p.iesters agree with dub006's rally to fascism?
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,992
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
imokyrok said:
FutureTaoiseach said:
find this attitude incomprehensible. Giving one person rights above another based on the patch of ground their granddad was born on 60 years ago makes no sense to me. We need to rise above evolutionary in group out group mentalities if the six billion people on this planet are to have any chance of living in peace.
I disagree. Just as American Jews are very loyal to Israel, people of Irish descent for whom it is a big part of their identity can be relied on more to be loyal to Ireland. I'll keep my "group mentality" thank you very much. I am Irish first and a citizen of the world second.
Ethnocentrism can be a very slippery slope indeed as Jews found out to their cost in Germany. If national chauvinism is a preference should ethnic nationalism take precedence over civic nationalism?
Ethnic-nationalism has proven a more durable basis for the nation state in European history. Ethnic-pride should not be confused with Nazism. Civil nationalism has worked okay in the United States, but only because of a strong assimilationist policy from the govt including the pledge of allegiance to the flag etc. Unless we are prepared to introduce mechanisms like this, our streets may end up more like Paris in 2005 than New York in 2008. That is what I fear could happen if the segregationist ideology of multiculturalism is not dropped.
 

jjacollins

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
64
If any of you want to see what happens when a community that moves to another Country and doesn't integrate, just look to the Six counties to see that happens.
 

Centurian

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
118
I certainly agree with Dub006 - It's an extreme situation and it needs an extreme solution. Anyone who entered this country illegally should be deported immediately - and not allowed to waste hundreds of millions of hard working Irish taxpayers money arguing their fabricated, bogus "asylum" claims in courts.
 

Centurian

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
118
The sickening thing is that we'd seen the disaster that uncontrolled immigration had been in the UK - And the gombeen men politicians here in Ireland still allowed it to happen here as well to a (relatively speaking) even worse extent.
 

dub006

Active member
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
212
Our democracy is effectively dead.

the last referendum on a Constitutional change was rejected because the fianna failers said they knew what was in the voters minds and tne answer they gave was simply the wron one.
When they gave the right answer fianna fail rewarded us with half a million east europeans.

They celebrated diversity and multiculturalism by awarding our democracy with a massive population of third worlders under the so called Irish born child scheme to remain here and hooked up to the wlefare system.
Illegal behaviour was thus rewarded and the Irish were victimised again.

Fasicsm would be a moral response and a survival response to this colonisation of our country.

Fascism cant be any worse for the Irish people than what we have now.
 

Conor

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Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,206
Centurian said:
I certainly agree with Dub006 - It's an extreme situation and it needs an extreme solution. Anyone who entered this country illegally should be deported immediately - and not allowed to waste hundreds of millions of hard working Irish taxpayers money arguing their fabricated, bogus "asylum" claims in courts.
Who should judge whether their entry was illegal, if not a court?
dub006?
 

froglet

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
26
Conor said:
dub006 said:
a suspension of acccess to the courts would be the first thing a fascist government should bring in .
It quite possibly would be.

I wonder, how many p.iesters agree with dub006's rally to fascism?
And when the Fascist Government runs out of non-nationals, what then? Do you think they will just go away? Don't think so. They will eliminate anyone who disagrees with them, even you duboo6 might be considered a danger! Be careful what you wish for..
 

Centurian

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Apr 30, 2008
Messages
118
Nothing could be worse than the human cess pit we have at the moment.
 

Conor

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Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,206
Centurian said:
Nothing could be worse than the human cess pit we have at the moment.
Dub006land sounds a lot worse to me.
 
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