• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.




Interesting meditations of a maverick Russian Bishop on the essence of Christianity, Salvation, etc.

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,089
Bishop Grigori Lourie of Petrograd and Gdov also known of Basil Lourie is a somewhat controversial figure, in the first place he belongs to one of the groups that broke away from the White Russian Synod in exile over its rapprochement to and finally union with the Moscow Patriarchate (the White Russians went into schism from the MP over its acceptance of Soviet authority in 1927), and in the second place he advocates the ideas of the "Name-Glorifiers"/Name worshipers who hold that the Name Jesus in and of itself has a Sacramental quality. However he is also a great scholar and the man behind the truly excellent Journal Scrinium. These meditations/internet sermons aimed at a non-academic and non-Christian audience, though of course I cant completely endorse them at all, certainly give food for thought and are challenging to both believer and non-believer alike.

ENGLISH VERSION: Swiss Dogmatics

"Pick up any (i.e., silly) Orthodox book and you will immediately get an answer. It is going to be something like this: “God became man, so that man would become a good person.” Now, do you want to be a “good person”? I, personally, don’t – whatever that “goodness” might mean. If a have to be a person, I would rather be the person I myself want to be, not the person that someone else (even God) would consider “good.” And if I were to think a bit harder, I would discover that there is nothing in the idea of a “person” (whatever a “person in general” might be) that would, on its own, be worth living for, even under the condition of immortality: meaningless things do not acquire meaning even if they become infinitely prolonged. The picture of Paradise as an infinite and happy human existence looks disturbingly similar to Islamic dreams about the pleasures of the afterlife. Muslims raise basic physiological “delights” to an infinite power, while Christians seem to have something closer to psychedelia: some sort of “psychedelic high” that one does not encounter in ordinary life. Compared to this, even Muslims seem to have something healthy.

That is why we should not read some processed “Orthodox” trash. One should not live on junk food. One should eat simple, healthy food, even if it is sometimes rough and hard to digest. Such are the Holy Fathers: they wrote about the teachings of the Church not because they were appointed to some positions and offices, but because they themselves had become the source of the teachings of the Church, for in them the real goal of the Incarnation of Christ was attained. And they themselves formulated it as follows:

"God became man, so that man would become God".

Now that puts it all in place. God is absolute, and therefore doesn't need any other "meaning" to justify His existence - quite the opposite; it is He Himself, Who gives meaning to everything that has meaning. The purpose of the creation of man was that man would become God - of course, become God while still being himself, or else why create man in the first place? Now, how would that come to be? - Just how the mirror opposite came to be in Jesus Christ, when God became man without ceasing being a God, and exactly because it happened in Jesus Christ.....

Being God has nothing to do with an infinitely prolonged human existence. It is a real Eternity, not only without an end, but also without a beginning. It is not in time, time being only an element of the material world, in which, by definition, we have notions of past, present, and future. God is uncreated, and so man, a creature by his nature, joining with the uncreated God, himself becomes uncreated - thus, as holy John Damascene fittingly summed it up in a rhyme: "ou Theos sarkoute, alla sarks theoute" - "not Deity assumes flesh, but flesh is deified"."

And here things get even more daring...

"During the baptism the words of Apostle Paul are read, that we are baptized into Christ's death. To resurrect with Christ, we partake in His death. This death from the early ages of Christianity was called "voluntary death"; here, the same expression was used, as one used in Roman Empire for suicide (mors voluntaria).

Our real participation in the death of Christ starts in baptism, and reaches fullness in our own death - our death in this world. The world, speaking through one of its prophets, Friedrich Nietzsche, already called Christ a suicide. And in the eyes of the world, everyone who follows Christ looks pretty much the same.

Martyrdom for Christ resembles suicide even externally: many martyrs would surrender to their deaths voluntarily, even having an option - or at least a hope - to escape from their persecutors. Some martyrs even killed themselves, not waiting for their executioners to put their hands on them. This never prevented Church, otherwise very strict and uncompromising on suicides, from glorifying such martyrs as saints, and words of their condemnation were only rarely spoken in the Latin West, which was falling away from the Orthodoxy.

But even a "peaceful" course of a truly Christian life is not too far from the idea of the suicide. Great teachers of Christian life for both monastics and laymen, Egyptian ascetics of fourth and fifth centuries, left us the following edifying story.

A novice complained to his elder, that he can't calmly bear humiliation from the people. Then the elder sent him to the cemetery, and told him to try his best at cursing and humiliating the dead buried there. Once the novice returned, the elder asked him, what was the dead men’s reaction. It turned out, there was none. Then he sent him there again, except this time with the task of glorifying the dead with eloquent praises. The reaction from the dead remained the same. Then the elder said: and so you must be for the world like these dead.

But a Christian can be dead only to the world. This way, for God he will stay very much alive. His life is the internal prayer, which has the same vital significance for him, as breathing has for our physical life."
 


Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
Mods, please. This Russian archbishop's meditations are hardly worth a thread in an Irish political forum and in reality not in 'Culture and Community'.

At best it would be in 'Interesting off-topic chat' and to be honest it would be stretching credulity even there.

The OP is doing that xtian thing of bombing the forum every few days with dogmatic navel gazing. I had thought that the forum administration was getting better at recognising the technique at play with this stuff.
 

The Field Marshal

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
44,408
Mods, please. This Russian archbishop's meditations are hardly worth a thread in an Irish political forum and in reality not in 'Culture and Community'.

At best it would be in 'Interesting off-topic chat' and to be honest it would be stretching credulity even there.

The OP is doing that xtian thing of bombing the forum every few days with dogmatic navel gazing. I had thought that the forum administration was getting better at recognising the technique at play with this stuff.
Looks like you are trying to censor any discussion concerning Christianity :roll:

I have little interest in this Russian Bishops meditations .

However there may be others who would wish to discuss the matter.

Exactly what is your problem?
 
Last edited:

Dr Pat

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
10,226
Mods, please. This Russian archbishop's meditations are hardly worth a thread in an Irish political forum and in reality not in 'Culture and Community'.

At best it would be in 'Interesting off-topic chat' and to be honest it would be stretching credulity even there.

The OP is doing that xtian thing of bombing the forum every few days with dogmatic navel gazing. I had thought that the forum administration was getting better at recognising the technique at play with this stuff.
I don't agree. It is rare enough that we get an interesting post on the meaning of life and everything. Even that has a political element to it I would think. We have Atheist postings regularly and no one seeks to ban those. Are you for banning threads on Islam too? Not the way to go, in my opinion.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
Are you saying that a Russian archbishop's meanderings from Petrograd are actually in any way relevant to Irish culture and community. I doubt they are even that relative in Petrograd never mind Termonfeckin.
 

The Field Marshal

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
44,408
Are you saying that a Russian archbishop's meanderings from Petrograd are actually in any way relevant to Irish culture and community. I doubt they are even that relative in Petrograd never mind Termonfeckin.
Of course they are relevant to those specific Irish Christians who are interested in Christianity as a global phenomenon.
 

Dr Pat

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
10,226
Are you saying that a Russian archbishop's meanderings from Petrograd are actually in any way relevant to Irish culture and community. I doubt they are even that relative in Petrograd never mind Termonfeckin.
We live in a global village and the faiths and beliefs of the world are surely worthy of consideration and comment in Termonfeckin and beyond. They have a political impact whether one approves of them or not.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
Of interest I am sure to a handful of people but then that is exactly what the 'chat'/'off-topic discussion' section of the forum caters for.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,089
Why was this thread moved to chat?

Like or not still a majority of people confess belief in the Deity of Jesus Christ in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Why is it that threads discussing the real substance of that Faith as opposed to minor things such views on sexual eccentricities held by the Church get moved to Chat?
 
Last edited:

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
37,442
Another one of these? Pleazeeee.....:roll:
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
Why was this thread moved to chat?

Like or not still a majority of people confess belief in the Deity of Jesus Christ in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Why is it that threads discussing the real substance of that Faith as opposed to minor things such views on sexual eccentricities by the Church get moved to Chat?
Tell us more of these 'sexual eccentricities by the church'.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
Not a lot of people in Ireland would regard a Basil in Petrograd's maunderings on theology as something they'd have to delay dinner for in fairness.

If you could explain how on earth the OP is in any way relevant to the culture and community in Ireland you'd stand some chance.

But then the motivation behind launching the OP wasn't to alert the community of Irish people interested in politics in Irish society that a priest from Petrograd was about to achieve critical theological mass was it?

It was in the hope of sliding xtian dogma onto the front page of the forum, wasn't it?
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,089
I don't agree. It is rare enough that we get an interesting post on the meaning of life and everything. Even that has a political element to it I would think. We have Atheist postings regularly and no one seeks to ban those. Are you for banning threads on Islam too? Not the way to go, in my opinion.
The irony of course is that most of Lumpy's posts are on Religion. Of course Dogmatic questions and approaches to Religion in general have had massive political and sociological effects and still do. To pretend they have no real import on the world at large is to deny reality- but our "Enlightened ones" want to reduce discussion of Religion to issues around sexual activity and pregnancy.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
The irony of course is that most of Lumpy's posts are on Religion. Of course Dogmatic questions and approaches to Religion in general have had massive political and sociological effects and still do. To pretend they have no real import on the world at large is to deny reality- but our "Enlightened ones" want to reduce discussion of Religion to issues around sexual activity and pregnancy.
You have a very strange way of capitalising words in a paragraph. On the subject of my posting levels on religion I can assure you that if less of it featured on this political forum I would have little to take issue with. And having arrived at a sensible human position of atheism through actual inquiry and deduction I find I know more about xtianity certainly than the vast majority of xtians. But this is not all that unusual as the vast majority of xtians know little or nothing about their official religion. Happily, neither do the vast majority attempt to do anything as daft as live by it.
 

Feckkit

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
5,889
..... On the subject of my posting levels on religion I can assure you that if less of it featured on this political forum I would have little to take issue with......

There's the chip on your shoulder at it again Lampy

F*k off and let people discuss what they want to.


..... And having arrived at a sensible human position of atheism through actual inquiry and deduction....

Lol
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
I have no objection to people discussing what they want. I do object to some chancer launching a thread on christian dogma in the culture and community section of the political forum when the cult concerned isn't even irish but yet another middle eastern lunacy.

I'm well aware why the OP launched her fascinating disquisition on internal xtian dogma on the front page of the forum and so, it appears, are the mods.
 

Feckkit

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
5,889
So you have no objection, but you have an objection?

......I seeeee.

And 'enquiry and deduction' are your strong points, huh ?
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,675
Twitter
No
So you have no objection, but you have an objection?

......I seeeee.

And 'enquiry and deduction' are your strong points, huh ?
Apparently there is a jesuit priest somewhere in Japan staring at Koy carp and wondering about the ineffable mystery of the trinity. Discuss...
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top