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Introducing a cost of living Dublin allowance for the public sector would save money by making national pay flexible

patslatt

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Introducing a cost of living Dublin allowance for the public sector would save money by making national pay flexible

The precedent for this is the London allowance which is meant to compensate for the high cost of living and high housing costs in London. Since rapidly rising housing costs in the metropolitan Dublin region have reduced the purchasing power of public sector workers in Dublin compared to the rest of Ireland, the issue is topical.

Under the present national pay agreements, public sector pay has to be high enough to attract and retain public sector workers faced with Dublin's high cost of living. Increasing the budgetary pressure on pay, top marginal tax rates of about 54% roughly double the gross pay that would be needed to cover the cost of living differences with the rest of Ireland.

A big disadvantage of the national public sector pay agreements is that high Dublin wages must also be paid in the rest of Ireland, resulting in inflexible payroll costs that are billions of euro higher than needed to attract the workforces. In any event,the ratio of public sector pay relative to the private sector pay average is way higher than in neighbouring EU countries, the UK, France, Germany and Denmark for instance.

A Dublin allowance could delink the pay of the Dublin public sector from the rest of Ireland. The latter's hospital system could benefit greatly as high pay has undermined payroll budgets, resulting in acute staff shortages.Given the similarity to business operations, hospitals in the rest of Ireland could assert increased flexibility and control over their payrolls. It might even be possible for individual hospitals to negotiate their own pay scales depending on local labour market conditions.

However,the Dublin allowance can't be justified at present given very high public sector pay in Dublin. Introducing the allowance should be delayed until the commission that will study comparable public sector pay in the EU completes its report.

Meanwhile, a statement by the government in support of the Dublin allowance in principle could set the stage for an end to national pay negotiations.
 
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ON THE ONE ROAD

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should be possible for a semi skilled worker in his/her 20's to get a mortgage on a single wage, have a family and the partner able to look after the kids all out of the same wage. Grants for that, what we have not is unsustainable.

Though dublin people living at home with their parents probably do have an unfair advantage in the entry level civil service and public service jobs in the city. It will be a different civil service than the one our parents knew.
 

JCR

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should be possible for a semi skilled worker in his/her 20's to get a mortgage on a single wage, have a family and the partner able to look after the kids all out of the same wage. Grants for that, what we have not is unsustainable.

Though dublin people living at home with their parents probably do have an unfair advantage in the entry level civil service and public service jobs in the city. It will be a different civil service than the one our parents knew.
Have a grant for people in their 20s who can't afford a mortgage? Yes lets just give people with crap jobs a huge sum of money. Good idea, bound to work because we have limitless money after all, well the elite we can tax to get that money from do anyway I suppose.

Its just a mystery why no one has thought of this before. They say that about all the best ideas mind you. Well done.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Is it the job of an employer (the govt) to pay a wage which reflects the cost of living? The govt would be better placed driving down the cost of living.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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Have a grant for people in their 20s who can't afford a mortgage? Yes lets just give people with crap jobs a huge sum of money. Good idea, bound to work because we have limitless money after all, well the elite we can tax to get that money from do anyway I suppose.

Its just a mystery why no one has thought of this before. They say that about all the best ideas mind you. Well done.
it was tongue in cheek but if we are going to have conversations about throwing money at sustaining bad practices then why not go to the source. A grant, a decent wage that can support a family what ever. The state is already supplementing workers income at the lower end of the pay scale with family income support, casual dockets and probably a lot of blind eyes to fraud in the one parent family payment. Doesn't look like stopping, it could if employers paid their workers decent wage but they won't and haven't for a long time so the bones of that good idea has been around for a while.
 

GabhaDubh

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What a great way to put the peoples money into private hands.
 

nakatomi

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The precedent for this is the London allowance which is meant to compensate for the high cost of living and high housing costs in London. Since rapidly rising housing costs in the metropolitan Dublin region have reduced the purchasing power of public sector workers in Dublin compared to the rest of Ireland, the issue is topical.

Under the present national pay agreements, public sector pay has to be high enough to attract and retain public sector workers faced with Dublin's high cost of living. Increasing the budgetary pressure on pay, top marginal tax rates of about 54% roughly double the gross pay that would be needed to cover the cost of living differences with the rest of Ireland.

A big disadvantage of the national public sector pay agreements is that high Dublin wages must also be paid in the rest of Ireland, resulting in inflexible payroll costs that are billions of euro higher than needed to attract the workforces. In any event,the ratio of public sector pay relative to the private sector pay average is way higher than in neighbouring EU countries, the UK, France, Germany and Denmark for instance.

A Dublin allowance could delink the pay of the Dublin public sector from the rest of Ireland. The latter's hospital system could benefit greatly as high pay has undermined payroll budgets, resulting in acute staff shortages.Given the similarity to business operations, hospitals in the rest of Ireland could assert increased flexibility and control over their payrolls. It might even be possible for individual hospitals to negotiate their own pay scales depending on local labour market conditions.

However,the Dublin allowance can't be justified at present given very high public sector pay in Dublin. Imtroducing the allowance should be delayed until the commission that will study comparable public sector pay in the EU completes its report.

Meanwhile, a statement by the government in support of the Dublin allowance in principle could set the stage for an end to national pay negotiations.
Collective agreements suit the employer well. Allowing individual hospitals in a time of skill shortages to set their own pay scales would lead to increased mobility of staff and actually force wages up.
Say you have a surgeon in a hospital in Kilkenny and Naas are desperate for a surgeon and offer 20% more so they move to Naas, this leaves Killkenny needing to offer at least 20% more to attract another surgeon. They cannot attract a surgeon, so they put the pay up 30%, - now the surgeon , in Naas moves back with to Kilkenny with 30% more.
 

Voluntary

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Collective agreements suit the employer well. Allowing individual hospitals in a time of skill shortages to set their own pay scales would lead to increased mobility of staff and actually force wages up.
Say you have a surgeon in a hospital in Kilkenny and Naas are desperate for a surgeon and offer 20% more so they move to Naas, this leaves Killkenny needing to offer at least 20% more to attract another surgeon. They cannot attract a surgeon, so they put the pay up 30%, - now the surgeon , in Naas moves back with to Kilkenny with 30% more.
You identified the problem now there's an easy fix for that (skill shortage). Train more surgeons.

There's no lack of smart people who would love to study medicine and get on doctor's salary ladder.
 

nakatomi

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You identified the problem now there's an easy fix for that (skill shortage). Train more surgeons.

There's no lack of smart people who would love to study medicine and get on doctor's salary ladder.
We already train more doctors than any other european country apart from Austria. Twice the OECD average.
Far more than we need. They just will not stay. I wonder why?
 

Uganda

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Collective agreements suit the employer well. Allowing individual hospitals in a time of skill shortages to set their own pay scales would lead to increased mobility of staff and actually force wages up.
Say you have a surgeon in a hospital in Kilkenny and Naas are desperate for a surgeon and offer 20% more so they move to Naas, this leaves Killkenny needing to offer at least 20% more to attract another surgeon. They cannot attract a surgeon, so they put the pay up 30%, - now the surgeon , in Naas moves back with to Kilkenny with 30% more.
A fair point. But if naas is better run than Kilkenny, and through being much more efficient can free up the funds to pay the consultant more in order to get one, why should they be denied the opportunity?
 

nakatomi

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A fair point. But if naas is better run than Kilkenny, and through being much more efficient can free up the funds to pay the consultant more in order to get one, why should they be denied the opportunity?
Because in a situation where there is a skills shortage this will drive up wages in all the hospitals where there is a skill shortage, it will lead to a transient situation where staff will work in a hospital for a short period before moving to the next better paying hospital.

Previously consultant jobs would attract at least 20 applicants per job, now they attract none.
 

Prester Jim

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You identified the problem now there's an easy fix for that (skill shortage). Train more surgeons.

There's no lack of smart people who would love to study medicine and get on doctor's salary ladder.
You train more surgeons then more surgeons will gleefully migrate to better paid jobs with better futures etc worldwide.
We need to train more surgeons and make it a much more attractive option to stay here, lots of carrot in the form of career development and conditions as well as pay plus a bit of stick in that it costs a sh1t load to train surgeons and we are training great ones here that we should find ways of keeping.
 

Voluntary

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Stay and work in IE for min 10 years or pay back the full cost of education, how would that work?
 

Voluntary

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We already train more doctors than any other european country apart from Austria. Twice the OECD average.
Far more than we need. They just will not stay. I wonder why?
Feeling now what countries like eg Poland feel where they educate tension of thousand who then leave for UK, Ireland or Germany? Total NETT numbers are most likely in favour of Ireland anyway (I mean number of educated abroad coming into the country is higher than number of educated here leaving the country). Ireland educates less people then it gets so should be well able to educate some extra surgeons.
 

ruserious

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At the moment, the government think that it is perfectly fine to pay new entrants to the Civil Service below the Living Wage. Isn't that mad, Ted.
 

Florence

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Stay and work in IE for min 10 years or pay back the full cost of education, how would that work?
Doctors on the Graduate medical programme pay fees of €15,000 - €17,500 pa for the 4 year programme and can get NO HELP from SUSI towards these fees. Thus on qualification they owe at least €100,00 allowing for living expenses, rent for the four years. Starting pay is around €31.5k. They leave Ireland as its the only way to pay off their debts in a reasonable time, and to be treated better etc.

Its obvious that more would stay if there was help with the fees in return for working in the HSE for a defined period of time. Why cannot our rulers see this?
 
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nakatomi

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It's not just Doctors, there are serious shortages of nurses.
Pat maybe correct, an extra payment maybe required to get nurses to work in Dublin . With rent and childcare costs it has become uneconomic to work in Dublin.
 


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