Iraqi Court Acquits 'Redcap Murder' Suspects

picador

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Red Cap murders: disbelief as Iraqi judge frees suspects - Telegraph

There's fairly widespread 'outrage' in the British press after an Iraqi court released the last two suspects in the case of the six British Military Police Officers who were killed after an angry crowd stormed a police station in the south-eastern town of Majar al-Kabir in 2003.

Unsurprsingly much of the coverage glosses over the fact that, shortly before the storming of the police station, the infamous First Batallion of the Parachute Regiment had rampaged through the town, shooting a number of local civilians, before withdrawing in the face of local resistance.

While sections of the British media express their 'disbelief' over the Iraqi verdict I am perplexed that anyone in Britain seriously contends Iraqi nationals should be proscuted for the 'murder' of members of a force which invaded their country in violation of international law.

Meanwhile the British Ministry of Defence refuses to explain why a number of servicemen suspected of involvement in the murder of Iraqi civilians were not put on trial.
 
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former wesleyan

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Unarmed redcaps. "Heroic " Iraqi "resistance " ......like the two corporals torn apart by a "heroic " mob in Belfast. And the Iraqis were begging someone to come and destroy Saddam like the Belfast heros had previously been begging the Brits to come and save them from the rampaging Loyalists. Two classy outfits.
 

picador

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It's amazing some of the repsonse you get if you dare to critcise the mighty British Army.

This thread is about events in Iraq - and the reaction to them in Britain. The soldiers were armed - one of those accused was charged with stealing weapons from the deceased. They also defended their position. Four Iraqis were killed and a number were wounded during the storming of the police station.
 
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Aspherical123

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Red Cap murders: disbelief as Iraqi judge frees suspects - Telegraph

There's fairly widespread 'outrage' in the British press after an Iraqi court released the last two suspects in the case of the six British Military Police Officers who were killed after an angry crowd stormed a police station in the south-eastern town of Majar al-Kabir in 2003.

Unsurprsingly much of the coverage glosses over the fact that, shortly before the storming of the police station, the infamous First Batallion of the Parachute Regiment had rampaged through the town, shooting a number of local civilians, before withdrawing in the face of local resistance.

While sections of the British media express their 'disbelief' over the Iraqi verdict I am perplexed that anyone in Britain seriously contends Iraqi nationals should be proscuted for the 'murder' of members of a force which invaded their country in violation of international law.

Meanwhile the British Ministry of Defence refuses to explain why a number of servicemen suspected of involvement in the murder of Iraqi civilians were not put on trial.
Stop telling lies:mad:

They were training local Police and when the mob when thousands attacked the Police station, they surrendered and were butchered.

QUOTE

Mark Nicol
The British BLACKHAWK DOWN: How a patrol from the Parachute Regiment fought its way to safety while six British military policemen were massacred.
On 24 June 2003, six British military policemen were killed in the most horrific circumstances in Iraq. At the same time, and in the same town, a small patrol of the Parachute Regiment shot its way out of an Iraqi ambush.
Mark Nicol investigates the controversial deaths of the Military Policemen, drawing on their own diaries and letters home, as well as eyewitness testimony from their Iraqi Police interpreters. At the same time, he tells the incredible story of how a hopelessly outnumbered patrol of Paras managed to escape the fury of the mob. The Paras were ready to die, fighting, in the best traditions of the maroon berets. Their lives were ultimately saved by Private Freddy Ellis, whose bravery under fire moved his commander on the ground to recommend he be decorated. Sergeant Gordon Robertson was awarded a Conspicuous Gallantry Cross for his leadership during the contact.


The assault on the police station was launched after a sweep through Majar al-Kabir by soldiers from the 1st Battalion the Parachute Regiment.

The town's inhabitants, who express no sorrow about the murders, are infuriated by the Paras' behaviour. They accuse them of breaking an agreement to end house-to-house searches and deliberately humiliating them.

The chain of events leading to the murderous attack can be traced to Monday, when British officers met Iraqi community leaders in the town.

The British wanted to clear the town of weapons. Many homes are miniature arsenals and coalition forces have accepted that depriving families of their AK-47 assault rifles, which are kept in almost every house, is an impossible task.

Instead, the Paras wanted the people to surrender their rocket-propelled grenade launchers, anti-aircraft guns, mortars and other heavy weapons.
 
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Sync

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Seems pretty open and shut really:
All of the witnesses testified before the high criminal court that they had not seen who killed the soldiers during the rampage in the southern Iraqi town of Majar al-Kabir on 24 June 2003. All said they had seen and heard the gunmen approach, but none saw the moment of death.
So no witnesses, or any corroborating evidence. What else could the judges do?


Lance Corporal Hyde's father John told Sky: "Quite honestly these people just haven't been in court long enough to be able to prove their innocence, which obviously asks the question why did the judge decide to bring it to court then dismiss it so quickly?"
Because you don't have to "prove your innocence"

On the larger issue, I'm not sure why this was a judicial matter. In 2003 everyone generally regarded the war as ongoing. Colin Powell's speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee | World news | guardian.co.uk

Soldiers die in war. That's not necessarily a crime.
 

Aspherical123

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Seems pretty open and shut really:


So no witnesses, or any corroborating evidence. What else could the judges do?




Because you don't have to "prove your innocence"

On the larger issue, I'm not sure why this was a judicial matter. In 2003 everyone generally regarded the war as ongoing. Colin Powell's speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee | World news | guardian.co.uk

Soldiers die in war. That's not necessarily a crime.
Soldiers die in war, but militas and mobs dont have a right to butcher soldiers who surrender.


Prove your innocence? Not sure about Iraq but you are presumed guilty till you prove your innocent in many countries. The Napoleonic code.
“Guilty until proven innocent” was a precept of the old Civil Law that continued in the Napoleonic Code."

In the Gulf nations of the Middle East, the influence of the Napoleonic code mixed with hints of Islamic law is clear, even in Saudi Arabia (which abides more towards Islamic law). In Kuwait for example, property rights, women's rights, and the education system can be seen as reenactments of the French civil code. Some of these aspects can be seen in other Gulf states, although less pronounced than in Kuwait, this primarily being due to the democratic nature of Kuwait, rather than the absolutist nature of the rest of the Gulf nations.
 
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Sync

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Prove your innocence? Not sure about Iraq but you are presumed guilty till you prove your innocent in many countries. The Napoleonic code.

In the Gulf nations of the Middle East, the influence of the Napoleonic code mixed with hints of Islamic law is clear, even in Saudi Arabia (which abides more towards Islamic law). In Kuwait for example, property rights, women's rights, and the education system can be seen as reenactments of the French civil code. Some of these aspects can be seen in other Gulf states, although less pronounced than in Kuwait, this primarily being due to the democratic nature of Kuwait, rather than the absolutist nature of the rest of the Gulf nations.
In Iraq there's the presumption of innocence although not a requirement to be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
 

Aspherical123

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In Iraq there's the presumption of innocence although not a requirement to be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
Any link to prove your point? Most Islamic countries have the Napoleonic code or elements of sharia where you prove your innocent.

Im pretty sure Iraq follows the Napoleonic code.
 

Sync

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Green eyed monster

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Red Cap murders: disbelief as Iraqi judge frees suspects - Telegraph

There's fairly widespread 'outrage' in the British press after an Iraqi court released the last two suspects in the case of the six British Military Police Officers who were killed after an angry crowd stormed a police station in the south-eastern town of Majar al-Kabir in 2003.

Unsurprsingly much of the coverage glosses over the fact that, shortly before the storming of the police station, the infamous First Batallion of the Parachute Regiment had rampaged through the town, shooting a number of local civilians, before withdrawing in the face of local resistance.

While sections of the British media express their 'disbelief' over the Iraqi verdict I am perplexed that anyone in Britain seriously contends Iraqi nationals should be proscuted for the 'murder' of members of a force which invaded their country in violation of international law.

Meanwhile the British Ministry of Defence refuses to explain why a number of servicemen suspected of involvement in the murder of Iraqi civilians were not put on trial.
Good post, i too was amazed at the gall of the British to prosecute in the first place. As though this were a normal criminal procedure and resistance against the invaders was criminal in some fashion... Truly bizarre.

Good that they have been acquitted however... I remember the case well and i remember feeling proud of the Iraqis on the day and the dismay it was greeted with in the UK. Even if the pressure such actions engenders in the home base of the attacking country is never sufficient to stop the slaughter then at least it punishes the Government in power in that country, it embarrasses them and forces them on the defensive.

Soldiers die in war, but militas and mobs dont have a right to butcher soldiers who surrender.
With only one or two arrests of British personnel for warcrimes despite a mountain of evidence piling up on the desk of the lawyer acting on behalf of victims i would say that your statement of 'rights' and 'laws' in war only apply to the Iraqis. The MOD has for example covered up the torture murder of around a dozen Iraqis in the aftermath of one battle alone, they let the colonel in charge of the Baha Mousa killers walk away scot free without blemish etc etc, NI in other words.
 

niropiro

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I remember the case well and i remember feeling proud of the Iraqis on the day and the dismay it was greeted with in the UK.
You are a sick twisted piece of scum.
You are condoning the murder of six brave men.
Why don't you write to their families and tell them how proud you are that their sons were beaten to death. Go on. Be a brave boy.
 

Green eyed monster

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You are a sick twisted piece of scum.
You are condoning the murder of six brave men.
Why don't you write to their families and tell them how proud you are that their sons were beaten to death. Go on. Be a brave boy.
Honest though, i opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The only way to encourage them to leave is to kill them, talking won't help.
If Britain invaded the Republic with a massive simultaneous level of destruction and loss of life would you defend the rights of the occupiers in this way?

Wait don't even answer that....
 

Green eyed monster

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You are a sick twisted piece of scum.
You are condoning the murder of six brave men.
Why don't you write to their families and tell them how proud you are that their sons were beaten to death. Go on. Be a brave boy.
You call them brave men and take pains to humanise them but they are also soldiers.

Just genuinely curious but how would you suggest an invaded country's people should demonstrate their resistance to that invasion if attacking their 'brave men' is out of bounds?

How else can those people get at the invaders except through the instruments of their vicious policies, the soldiers themselves? The generals and politicians are safely tucked away, nobody condones attacks on the invader's civilian population so what is left?
 

Green eyed monster

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So much for 'brave men'....

The British Military in Iraq : A Legacy of War Crimes and Atrocities

One of the six dead redcaps who the OP story is referring to was a Corporal Russ Aston

Casual killing started early in the invasion. Corporal Russ Aston, who later died in an assault on a police station in Al Majar, wrote, in March 2003 : " I've shot 4-5 Iraqis and one of them were quite young, about 14-15 ... I felt bad at the time, but I'm OK now." In a call to his mother he reportedly said: "It's just killing for killing's sake out here ... I don't know how I am going to cope with what I've seen."
Another was a Sergeant Simon Hamilton-Jewell...

Aston's colleague, Sergeant Simon Hamilton-Jewell, who was also to die at Al Majar, wrote home, with excitement, of capturing three: "Ba'ath Party members." Ignorance clearly reigned. It was near impossible to get work in Iraq, during Saddam Hussein's leadership, without signing up, whatever the individual's views on Ba'athism (pan-Arabism.) "I had them lying on the floor (of a vehicle) handcuffs, sandbags on their heads and my shooter pointing straight at their heads ..." So much for the Geneva Convention.
And you call me 'sick and twisted'? I don't have a 14 year old's murder on my conscience.

These kinds of cruel and unfair treatments meted out by British colonial troops in Iraq are the reason why they were killed without compunction when the chance arose.
 

myksav

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Soldiers die in war, but militas and mobs dont have a right to butcher soldiers who surrender.


Prove your innocence? Not sure about Iraq but you are presumed guilty till you prove your innocent in many countries. The Napoleonic code.
“Guilty until proven innocent” was a precept of the old Civil Law that continued in the Napoleonic Code."

In the Gulf nations of the Middle East, the influence of the Napoleonic code mixed with hints of Islamic law is clear, even in Saudi Arabia (which abides more towards Islamic law). In Kuwait for example, property rights, women's rights, and the education system can be seen as reenactments of the French civil code. Some of these aspects can be seen in other Gulf states, although less pronounced than in Kuwait, this primarily being due to the democratic nature of Kuwait, rather than the absolutist nature of the rest of the Gulf nations.
That pre-supposes that Iraq uses the Napoleonic style "guilty until proved innocent". Given that the US was the primary invader, it's more likely that the court system works similar to the US one "innocent until proved guilty".

Britons also don't like it when a Briton is caught smuggling drugs in certain countries like Thailand.
 

former wesleyan

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So much for 'brave men'....




These kinds of cruel and unfair treatments meted out by British colonial troops in Iraq are the reason why they were killed without compunction when the chance arose.
Drivel.. pure and unadulterated drivel. The Iraqi opposition in exile were begging for intervention. It is to be regretted that the idiotic Americans were allowed to drive the project, but that's another days work altogether.
Colonial troops !!!
 

Conor the Bold

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So much for 'brave men'....

The British Military in Iraq : A Legacy of War Crimes and Atrocities

One of the six dead redcaps who the OP story is referring to was a Corporal Russ Aston



Another was a Sergeant Simon Hamilton-Jewell...



And you call me 'sick and twisted'? I don't have a 14 year old's murder on my conscience.

These kinds of cruel and unfair treatments meted out by British colonial troops in Iraq are the reason why they were killed without compunction when the chance arose.
Russell Ashton apparent testimony has be hackneyed to worthlessness and anything he has said has been takened completely out of context. With the amount of enforced breaks ... its actually impossible to know what he's talking about. I suppose if you literally cut to pieces a persons words and manage to put them in chronological order with enough breaks you could in theory have got him to 'confess' to killing President Kennedy as well.

So basically he's talking writing saying his shot (Shot, not killed incidentally) 4-5 or five Iraqi's, and one quite young. Then is then a break... where we have no idea what esle he's written. But then we come back to where the man has rationalised his actions.

And then you have a phone call to his mother in which he refers to "Killing for killing sake" then an enforced break and then mentions how he doesn't know how much more he can take. There is literally no actual indication of whose even doing the killing - just that the author has managed to take excepts from "Last Round" a book about the Para's and the Red Caps involved in the incident, one written by Mark Nicol and co, and managed to completely change it's meaning (One would think that as a British Book, highlight the bravery and honour of the troops, its not actually going to let them be painted in a bad light).

Simon Hamilton-Jewell is completely unsourced!

You know, its not the ignorance and prejudice that bothers the most about people like you. That's just part and parcel or who you are and who you'll die as. It's just the sheer, gob-smacking stupidity which you show by lapping up anything which seems to agree with your point of view and then posting it- yet its plain for any impartial observer seeing the actual hacked to death quotes, from source material which indicates that its taken so out of context it might as well be worthless.
 

sondagefaux

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That pre-supposes that Iraq uses the Napoleonic style "guilty until proved innocent".
There is no presumption of guilt in the Code Napoleon.

In fact, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man (1789) states that suspects are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

The Code Napoleon also contained a reminder to jurors that defendants should be treated as innocent until proven guilty and gave defendants the legal right to defence lawyers, a right not granted to defendants in British felony trials until 1836.

Britons also don't like it when a Briton is caught smuggling drugs in certain countries like Thailand.
True. Every time the British media report on a trial involving Britons abroad there is an underlying assumption that the foreign court is guilty of bias and that every verdict which goes against the British party is unfair.
 

Conor the Bold

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True. Every time the British media report on a trial involving Britons abroad there is an underlying assumption that the foreign court is guilty of bias and that every verdict which goes against the British party is unfair.
Unlike every other country of course.
 


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