Ireland 1641-1648

Aggressor

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
43
Lisa Marie said:
In England, the Civil Wars had ended with a Parliamentarian victory. The new Strongman, Oliver Cromwell, was a Puritan; he regarded Catholicism an evil force which had to be destroyed - and he began his war on Catholicism in Ireland.
Is that a just a quote or a signature?
 


FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,980
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
I question the claim of 37,000 planters being killed in 1641. The BBC website says it was around 12,000. You have to remember that the total Protestant population in Ulster at this time was around 40,000 anyway.
 

The Earl of Desmond

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
232
If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....

The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.

So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...
 

FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,980
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
The Earl of Desmond said:
If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....

The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.

So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...
Unfortunately history, metaphorically, seems to be repeating itself, though not involving the British this time. :?

Lisa Marie said:
Perhaps we will never know the exact numbers, but 12,000 out of a population of 40,000 is still significant.
Yes but remember at least as many would have died or been sold into slavery (many in Sweden which was a centre of the slave-trade back then) in the expulsions of Catholics during the Plantations. It's not all one way.
 

Halo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
774
FutureTaoiseach said:
I question the claim of 37,000 planters being killed in 1641. The BBC website says it was around 12,000. You have to remember that the total Protestant population in Ulster at this time was around 40,000 anyway.
Pro imperialist and somewhat anti nationalist historian richard english has the number as low as 4000
Most historians now agree that there was an attempt to re write history by some historians during the late and early 17th and 18th centuries in that the amount of planters killed during that period was grossly exaggerated. Most agree this was an attempt to justify cromwells murder campaign which seen the population of ireland almost half.
 

Halo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
774
The Earl of Desmond said:
If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
The Earl of Desmond said:
The only ones who ever fought were the Earls of Kildare and Desmond but the Irish, like the Scots, were easily bribed to turn on their own. Same as in 1798 it was Irish people who ratted out the leaders to the British spies.
under a brutal military foreign occuaption, some of the native population will always give in.

The Earl of Desmond said:
So in reality we only have ourselves to blame for what followed ...
Just a wee reminder why your party has been out of government for longer than any other major european party since 32.
 

The Earl of Desmond

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
232
Halo said:
The Earl of Desmond said:
If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
The Earl of Desmond said:
I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.
 

FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,980
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.
FG's biggest Achilles Heel is Labour. People know if they vote FG they will get Labour.
 
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
33
The following extract is taken from the book "The Irish Race" by Seamus MacManus

For purpose, now, of inciting the English at home to wipe out the Irish and thus provide more estates for the covetous in Britain,there was invented a story of fearful massacre of almost all of the protestants of Ireland,on the night of the rising.Not only did the eager English readily believe it,but after a while the parties in Ireland who started the story almost came to believe it themselves.And many thousands of good sincere Irish protestants and many thousands of Ardent English.
Many ludicrous estimates were given to the world by both innocent and crafty Englishmen and Anglo-Irish.

The Rev. Ferdinand Warner,protestant minister in his history of the Irish Rebellion written shortly after the event says "it is easy enough to demonstarte the falsehood of the relation of every English Historian of the rebellion"

This long cherished and widely advertised great popish massacre may be disposed in the words of Rev. Dr. Taylor "The Irish massacre of 1641 has been a phrase so often repeated even in books of education that one can scarcely conceal his suprise when he learns that the tale is apocryphal as the wildest fiction of romance."
 

Halo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
774
The Earl of Desmond said:
Halo said:
[quote="The Earl of Desmond":29jwvlkc]If Hugh O'Neill hadn't fled and had instead stayed and fought who knows ....
it most kill a free stater like yourself to know that uslter was the most rebellious area of ireland.
The Earl of Desmond said:
I'm a Free Stater now - I thought I my family were West Brits even though the phrase 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' was coined for us.

As to the comment about FG not winning office. There's an element of truth in what you say as most people don't like being confronted with the truth about their flaws and sooner or later people do have to face their flaws if they genuinely want to change.

So if Irish people genuinely want their children to have proper schools and a decent education, to have a proper clean and efficient health service, to have honest politicians, a mortgage you can pay off in 20 years that only takes up at most 30% of your net income etc then to do that means facing some hard realities about the Irish mindset and why we condone and continue to support corrupt politics and then i nthe next breath wonder why despite all the tax we pay that we do not have the public services we want.

We can't have it both ways and at some point we'll have to either decide the corrupt politics is worth the price for the type of country we have or it's not.

It's up to Fine Gael to win the argument that corrupt politics is not a price worth paying. It if loses that argument then there is no future for FG.
[/quote:29jwvlkc]
i made no reference to your family normans roots.
Anyway without getting into any debate or argument my point is that fianna fail i believe, are no different to your own party but a quote like the above would never come from their mouth as they know it would be no way in their political interests to do so. Whether you blame the Irish or not- this is just another example of your party losing out electorally by championing to some extents the works of pro imperialist revisionists and generally conceding all the patriotic grounds to your only rivals. The only major european party i believe to do so. maybe its a hangover from tthe civil i dont know but until you do address this issue you are going to be out of governmennt a lot longer than you are in it in the coming 50years.
 

Catalpa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,257
Lisa Marie said:
Ireland 1641-1648

A.) Pre-History of the Revolt

The first Stuart King, James I. (1603-1625), supported the settlement of British (mostly Scottish) Protestants in Ulster (Ireland), the so-called Ulster Plantation, on lands confiscated from Irish nobles who had rebelled against British rule. The confiscation of Irish land, however, affected also the Irish peasant population which, naturally, resented being driven off their lands.

In Ireland, the mass of the population remained loyal to the Roman Catholic church; the Catholic church was the most important organization preserving Irish tradition and identity. The Protestant Community of Ireland consisted mainly of the recently arrived settlers, of landowners of English ancestry (the Hiberno-English) and of Irish who lived in communities which had accepted the Anglican Reformation.

Relations between Irish-Catholics and Protestants were the worst in Ulster, less tense in other regions or Ireland. The policy of Viceroy Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford (1632-1640) to strengthen royal authority and revenue by at times favouring Catholics, at times favouring Protestant planters, exacerbated the friction.

B.) The Course of Events

In October 1641, a conspiracy was organized by the Irish Catholic clergy of Ulster, with the aim of ousting the entire protestant population; they were to be chased of their land, bereaved of their belongings, even stripped of their clothes. They also were to be refused food and shelter. Many were killed, others starved and froze to death in the winter that followed. Only a few fortified places, such as Londonderry, held out; most of Ulster was under the control of Catholic Irish rebels, lead by Phelim O'Neill. The numbers of those who fell victim to this attempt of ethnic cleansing is given as 37,000.

King Charles I. sent an army under the Earl of Strafford to restore law and order, and there were acts of retaliation.

Then, the Scots rebelled against the enforced introduction of the Book of Common Prayer in their country; King Charles I. recalled the English parliament, asking for taxes to fight the Scots; Parliament demanded redresses, the situation escalated into the English Civil War (which also was an Anglo-Scottish War). Neither (English) King nor (English) Parliament had attention or funds to invest in Ireland.

Lord Strafford had been recalled to England to fight the Scots, and, before he could do so, sentenced of treason and executed. Worse, the English Army in Ireland remained unpaid.

In 1642 a Synod was held at Kilkenny, which decided the establishment of an Irish Parliament, the Confederation of Kilkenny, which was dominated by landowning nobility, both Catholic and Protestant, who wanted to restore tranquility rather than escalate the war. Most of Ulster, however remained under the control of the rebels, now lead by Owen Roe O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone.

The arrival of papal envoy Giovanni Battista Rinuccini in 1645 added a diplomatic dimension to the affair; he negotiated with King Charles I. the conditions for the entry of an Irish army into the English Civil War (which did not materialize). In 1646, Owen Roe O'Neill's rebel forces defeated Monro's Scottish Army in the Battle of Blenburb in 1646.

The Confederation of Kilkenny, Owen Roe O'Neill and Nuncio Rinuccini lacked a common policy. O'Neill, in essence, tried to restore the fiefs his ancestors had forfeited in a rebellion against England; the Confederation pursued a policy less confrontational (and often had a hard time agreeing over any policy), the nuncio used Ireland as a pawn in papal diplomacy. Nuncio Rinuccini left in February 1649, having failed to gain concessions for the Irish Catholic Church. Owen Roe O'Neill died in the same year.

C.) Legacy

In England, the Civil Wars had ended with a Parliamentarian victory. The new Strongman, Oliver Cromwell, was a Puritan; he regarded Catholicism an evil force which had to be destroyed - and he began his war on Catholicism in Ireland.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/17cen ... 11648.html
The first Stuart King,

No he wasn't.

the Catholic church was the most important organization preserving Irish tradition and identity

Open to question to say the least of it- the Gaelic Language, poetry and Annalistic history and the Brehon Laws were also preserving Irish tradition and identity.

of Irish who lived in communities which had accepted the Anglican Reformation.

Very very few Irish accepted the 'Anglican Reformation'!

Viceroy Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford (1632-1640) to strengthen royal authority and revenue by at times favouring Catholics

He didn't 'favour' Catholics at all - he just was prepared to ease up on the religious impositions in return for support for the Crown.
 

froglet

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
26
This thread is great. Please keep it going as long as you can. I never knew any of this. Brilliant
 

Liverpoolblue

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
337
The settlers were the pawns of capitalists weren't they? The religious dimension was just an angle of exploitation. Setting up an alternative population to replace a more rebellious one. The greedy ruling class using people to support their investments in Ireland. At the time Ireland would have been considered as just another part of the isles to be exploited as a resource. Whatever the figures involved in this and other tragedies in Irish history they are all very sad events.

Lb
 

Catalpa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,257
In October 1641, a conspiracy was organized by the Irish Catholic clergy of Ulster, with the aim of ousting the entire protestant population; they were to be chased of their land, bereaved of their belongings, even stripped of their clothes. They also were to be refused food and shelter. Many were killed, others starved and froze to death in the winter that followed. Only a few fortified places, such as Londonderry, held out; most of Ulster was under the control of Catholic Irish rebels, lead by Phelim O'Neill. The numbers of those who fell victim to this attempt of ethnic cleansing is given as 37,000.

The Rising was not organized by ‘the Catholic Clergy’ at all but by Rory O’Moore, Conor Lord Maguire and Sir Phelim O’Neill + divers others. It’s true there were atrocities but the Puritans exaggerated them for their own ends to attack King Charles II with. There were also counter atrocities too.

King Charles I. sent an army under the Earl of Strafford to restore law and order, and there were acts of retaliation.

Sir Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl of Strafford was executed in May 1641 so he certainly wasn’t around to lead an Army in Ireland in October!

Most of Ulster, however remained under the control of the rebels, now lead by Owen Roe O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone.

Owen Roe O’Neill IIRC was never ‘Earl of Tyrone’ !!!


In 1646, Owen Roe O'Neill's rebel forces defeated Monro's Scottish Army in the Battle of Blenburb in 1646.

They were no more ‘rebels’ than the Scots were.

The Confederation of Kilkenny, Owen Roe O'Neill and Nuncio Rinuccini lacked a common policy. O'Neill, in essence, tried to restore the fiefs his ancestors had forfeited in a rebellion against England; the Confederation pursued a policy less confrontational (and often had a hard time agreeing over any policy)

The Old English Catholics dominated the Confederation of Kilkenny. They were in a very reluctant breach with the Crown and all too ready to reach a compromise with Ormond that was based on Royal promises not an open settlement. Rinuccini was at first prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt but as time wore on he realised they were hopeless and a lost cause.


the nuncio used Ireland as a pawn in papal diplomacy.

No he didn’t – he was sent to Ireland by the Pope to secure freedom for the Catholics of Ireland from religious persecution and to ensure they could practise their Religion openly.
 

Maureen Murphy 1234

Active member
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
118
1641 and all that

TCD certainly put it up to us nationalists to accept that our separated brethern got some cuppance. Paisley must have enjoyed seeing the manuscripts.
 
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
1
When the rising began, we captured three cities on the first night, with only one soldier killed. The English army ordered the senseless slaughter of Catholics, while Felim Roe O'Neill had ordered no tolerance for atrocities. The slaughter of Protestants was an out of control rabble, incited by the intentional violence of the English. About 4000 were killed, and a further 8000 died enduring harsh conditions when they were forced to leave the land they or their fathers had stolen. These people were criminals, rounded up and told to murder and whatever they could plunder was their to keep. Over a million and a half Irish had died from the conflagrations of Elizabeth I, and sadly, no one weeps for them ! "Potato famine" is a lot more benign to remember than the much worse one by fire and scythe.

This is a first-hand account from Chichester and Moryson, who caused the situation they are describing on the way back:

~ returning from their horrible expedition against Bryan mac Art, “saw a horrible spectacle - three children, the eldest not above ten years old, all eating and gnawing with their teeth the entrails of their dead mother, on whose flesh the had fed for twenty days past.”

These memories were still fresh in these peoples minds just a few decades later. Violence is a terrible thing, but we had no choice, and the reason there was an out of control mob is that the English had usurped power through their trademark treachery, and we did not have full control over our land or our people. Unfortunately though, ultimately it was our compassion that cost us our culture and our liberty. And still we have to suffer the apologies of the Pale about it !!!
 


Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top