Ireland and the Spanish Republic, by Donal Fallon.

Kommunist

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Earlier this month a commemoration for the 80th battle of Cable Street organized by Anti-Fascist Action (Ireland) one of the talks was on Ireland and the Spanish Republic. Here's the full video, it's very good.

[video=youtube;4neBw20GbaU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4neBw20GbaU[/video]
 


Kommunist

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Dedicated to what? It took me 5 seconds to post that.
 

Truth.ie

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The Commies in Spain were little different to ISIS when it came to brutality and sectarian butchery.
 

Kommunist

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The Commies in Spain were little different to ISIS when it came to brutality and sectarian butchery.
Sources:

Mein Kampf,
Franco's Biography
Goebbels
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Anyone (e.g. "Truth".ie), who has doubts about where the brutality and sectarian butchery in Spain originated, could and should start with Paul Preston's The Spanish Holocaust.

There's a copy right here on the shelf behind me, along with other materials. So, "Truth".ie or any comers, as Harry Callaghan said:
You've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?
 

Seanie Lemass

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Sources:

Mein Kampf,
Franco's Biography
Goebbels

You ever hear of Brian Goold Verschoyle?


Irish volunteer in Spain.

Abducted, tortured by NKVD and died in gulag camp.


Mick O'Riordan - who rumour has it never came within country mile of a gun, denied ever hearing of him.
 

Kommunist

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You ever hear of Brian Goold Verschoyle?


Irish volunteer in Spain.

Abducted, tortured by NKVD and died in gulag camp.


Mick O'Riordan - who rumour has it never came within country mile of a gun, denied ever hearing of him.
I haven't. I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything though...you ever hear of the people the Free State murdered and interned?
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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You ever hear of Brian Goold Verschoyle?


Irish volunteer in Spain.

Abducted, tortured by NKVD and died in gulag camp.


Mick O'Riordan - who rumour has it never came within country mile of a gun, denied ever hearing of him.
That's one version, I suppose. But hardly a "volunteer".

There's a file in that name, KV 2/817, in the UK National Archives. The summary runs:
Brian GOOLD-VERSCHOYLE, alias FRIEND: British. GOOLD-VERSCHOYLE was identified by the Russian intelligence agents Gen. Walter KRIVITSKY and Henri PIECK as having been used as a courier for delivering secret intelligence from agents in the UK, predominantly the Foreign Office cypher clerk John KING. KRIVITSKY said GOOLD-VERSCHOYLE, who was an ardent and exceptionally naive supporter of the Soviet Union, was unaware that he was assisting in espionage. GOOLD-VERSCHOYLE left the UK in 1936 to travel under alias to Moscow to undergo radio training. He was sent by the Russians to Spain during the Civil War, and was reportedly kidnapped by the OGPU and transported back to Russia following a fall-out with the Russian Ambassador in Valencia for whom he was working. Official Russian sources reported him killed on a railway journey in Russia in 1941 as a result of German bombing
That is clearly as problematic as the the International Socialism source: how factually-reliable is an unsourced Trotskyite account of three Trots who suffered at the hands of the Stalinist war-time purges? I don't have Barry McLoughlin's text, so the sources he may quote are not available to me.
 

Seanie Lemass

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I haven't. I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything though...you ever hear of the people the Free State murdered and interned?

Its relevance is that the Stalinist adventure in Spain was part of massive mass murder of people, running into millions.

If you want to pretend that it was like the Famous Five then good luck to you ;)
 

Truth.ie

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Reds were burning Churches in Spain as far back as the 1920's and the sectarianism predates the Civil War.
 

Truth.ie

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Churches were nationalised, Priests and Nuns banned from teaching, Jesuits expelled from the country, Crucifixes banned, religious processions on Holy Days banned...
Just some of the laws enforced by the Second Republic BEFORE the conflict began

Speeches from leading members of the "Government" led to mobs attacking convents, schools and Churches.
Graves of clergy members were ghoulishly dug up and the cadavers put on public display.

Most people in Ireland know their Spanish history from watching a Ken Loach movie.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Its relevance is that the Stalinist adventure in Spain was part of massive mass murder of people, running into millions.

If you want to pretend that it was like the Famous Five then good luck to you ;)
Ooh, gosh! So by that reckoning, Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco Bahamonde Salgado-Araujo y Pardo de Lama was another agent of Народный комиссариат внутренних дел (NKVD to the rest of us).

Must have words with Paul Preston for breaching the copyright of Enid Mary Blyton (a.k.a. "Mary Pollock"):
Behind the lines during the Spanish Civil War, nearly 200,000 men and women were murdered extra-judicially or executed after flimsy legal process. They were killed as a result of the military coup of 17–18 July 1936 against the Second Republic. For the same reason, perhaps as many as 200,000 men died at the battle fronts. Unknown numbers of men, women and children were killed in bombing attacks and in the exoduses that followed the occupation of territory by Franco’s military forces. In all of Spain after the final victory of the rebels at the end of March 1939, approximately 20,000 Republicans were executed. Many more died of disease and malnutrition in overcrowded, unhygienic prisons and concentration camps. Others died in the slave-labour conditions of work battalions. More than half a million refugees were forced into exile and many were to die of disease in French concentration camps. Several thousand were worked to death in Nazi camps.
 

Clanrickard

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It was all religions fighting for religious freedom.
50'000 Muslims from Morocco also fought against the red menace in Spain.
The White Terror of Franco killed far than the Red Terror.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Reds were burning Churches in Spain as far back as the 1920's and the sectarianism predates the Civil War.
I assume that when "Truth".ie refers to "sectarianism", the text really should read "not sufficiently Roman Catholic". That takes us back, Ab ovo usque ad mala. And the seed from which the apple would grow was planted, precisely, on 31st March 1492. Here it is:
A more immediate seed was spat from the mouth of José Ignacio de Urbina, who double-jobbed as founder of the National anti-Masonic and anti-Semitic League (in 1912, along with 22 other Spanish bishops) along with being Bishop of Almería:
... everything is ready for the decisive battle that must be unleashed between the children of light and the children of darkness, between Catholicism and Judaism, between Christ and the Devil. [Find the original in El Correo Gallego, 20 April 1922].
Beyond that, we need consider the problems of Spain after the period of the First World War:
  • The industrialising north of Spain, notably Catalonia and Asturias, had done quite nicely — thank you — from neutrality during the War. The War over, and the recession interposing, employers sought to crack down on employees: reducing wages, laying off workers at whim, using the civil powers to crush strikes — and, in Barcelona, sparking off a vicious cycle of provocation and reprisals. Was all this, "Truth".ie, as the bishops were propounding, some ghastly international plot against entrenched Catholicism by an alliance of Jews, Free-masons, and the Comintern?
  • In the south, we need to consider the persecution of jornaleros (day-labourers) and braceros, oppressed by the latifundios (big estate owners). Is "Truth".ie now asserting the trienio bolchevique ("the three Bolshevik years") was not the consequence of years of arrogance and oppression by the rural oligarchs? And that the aftermath of renewed oppression was not spiteful retribution by the landed against the landless?
Any chance we might stick to the original point of the thread: Ireland and the Spanish Republic?
 

Truth.ie

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For "Rural Oligarchs" read productive private farmers.
For "big estate owners" read family farms.

Luckily Spain dodged a bullet and was not condemned to decades of this failed ideology, and in fact boomed economically in the post Civil War years.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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For "Rural Oligarchs" read productive private farmers.
For "big estate owners" read family farms.

Luckily Spain dodged a bullet and was not condemned to decades of this failed ideology, and in fact boomed economically in the post Civil War years.
Dearie, dearie, me! There's none so blind as cannot see beyond their missal.

1. For "productive private farmers", read vast estates employing (or not) day-labourers on a rotation-basis. Check out turno riguroso, a term which meant the landowners' agents gave work only to the cheapest, non-unionised, unemployed labourers, leaving thousands in starvation. When all else failed, even cheaper, hungrier workers could be imported. And all that backed by the local militaries and para-militaries.

By 1934, in Jaén, Badajoz and Cordoba unemployment was already 150% of the national average. The employers then began to tear up any social legislation, so unemployment rose faster and further. By April 1934 it already stood at 703,000. Paul Preston (page 53) quotes a union leader from Baena:
The same owners who would spend 400,000 pesetas on a shawl for the statue of the Virgin or on a crucifix for the church stinted the olive oil for the workers' meals and would rather pay a lawyer 25,000 pesetas than an extra 25 cents to the day-labourers lest it create a precedent and let the workers get their way. In Baena, there was a señorito [master] who put cattle in the planted fields rather than pay the agreed wages to the reapers, A priest who had a farm, when the lad came down to get olive oil, had made dents in the tin jug so that it would hold less oil.
2. "family farms", my ... elbow. Spanish latifundios (the proper term I used) translates as a "great estates of Latin America or Spain". Elsewhere, I see a latifundio would need to be anywhere upwards of 500 hectares (and many were vastly "upwards") — something like a square mile as a minimum. Land ownership was a major irritant. And the estate-owners were notoriousy averse to getting soil under their manicured nails.

3.Luckily Spain dodged a bullet and was not condemned to decades of this failed ideology. Instead Spain got Francoism:
... above all authoritarianism, nationalism and anti-Freemasonry; some authors also quote integralism. All in all, Francoism showed a frontal rejection of Communism, Socialism and Anarchism. Although Franco and Spain under his rule adopted some trappings of fascism, he, and Spain under his rule, are not generally considered to be fascist; among the distinctions, fascism entails a revolutionary aim to transform society, where Franco and Franco’s Spain did not seek to do so, and, to the contrary, although authoritarian, were conservative and traditional...

While it included fascist elements, the Spanish State was very authoritarian: non-government trade unions and all political opponents across the political spectrum were either suppressed or tightly controlled by all means, including violent police repression. Most country towns and rural areas were patrolled by pairs of Guardia Civil, a military police for civilians, which functioned as his chief means of social control. Larger cities, and capitals, were mostly under the heavily-armed Policía Armada, commonly called grises.
4. boomed economically in the post Civil War years. Oh, catch herself' on!

By 1950 Spanish GDP was just 40% of the average for Western European economies. The peseta was a basket-case. Prices had tripled. The black market flourished. Los Años de Hambre, indeed.

The turning-point was the Pact of Madrid (1953), when the US heaved $1 billion to get access to Spanish air bases.Only then did output reach pre-Civil War levels. In 1952 Señor Zaragossa, the Mayor of Benidorm, passed a law permitting bikinis on his beaches. The Bishop of Valencia invoked excommunication. Señor Zaragossa mounted his trusty Vespa, and rode nine hours to Madrid, and begged an interview with El Caudillo de España himself. Allegedly María del Carmen Polo y Martínez-Valdés (i.e. Mrs Franco) intervened on Zaragossa's behalf; and El Caudillo chose to ignore the affront to his Catholic propriety. Within a year all the seaside resorts had followed Benidorm's lead. This, the innovation of package holidays, and unrestricted hotel-development fuelled tourism as a major industry.
 

Karloff

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By 1950 Spanish GDP was just 40% of the average for Western European economies. The peseta was a basket-case. Prices had tripled. The black market flourished. Los Años de Hambre, indeed.

The turning-point was the Pact of Madrid (1953), when the US heaved $1 billion to get access to Spanish air bases.Only then did output reach pre-Civil War levels. In 1952 Señor Zaragossa, the Mayor of Benidorm, passed a law permitting bikinis on his beaches. The Bishop of Valencia invoked excommunication. Señor Zaragossa mounted his trusty Vespa, and rode nine hours to Madrid, and begged an interview with El Caudillo de España himself. Allegedly María del Carmen Polo y Martínez-Valdés (i.e. Mrs Franco) intervened on Zaragossa's behalf; and El Caudillo chose to ignore the affront to his Catholic propriety. Within a year all the seaside resorts had followed Benidorm's lead. This, the innovation of package holidays, and unrestricted hotel-development fuelled tourism as a major industry.
In a pre-globalisation era - when there was not much international investment - nothing like today. In such times standard of living is a more important factor and there was no global standard by which to really judge that. If a loaf of bread cost 5 pence in Spain in 1950 but 40 pence in Germany - and if people then didn't buy much from outside their borders.

In Ireland today people have houses heading towards a million - but the country owes 200 billion, people here think they are the richest in the world as they wait on their A&E trolliies for 30 hours for treatment - because they read about it in some newspaper - but we are probably a few shocks away from becoming Greece, globalisation leads to a sense of unreality.
 


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