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Ireland compared to Norway


Tigris Celtica

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
503
When Norway discovered oil and gas off its coast, it promptly Semi/Nationalized it.
Bringing in experts from Multinational Oil companies, it founded
Statoil and used its resources to build it's own economy - Including the revenue earned by Statoil in Ireland.

Ireland is the only country in the world that gave it's
Oil/Gas resources away for NOTHING.
Yes, we will get Corporation Tax similar to that which we
receive from any Multinational, but the raw resource is given to Shell for nothing.
The man who signed this economically suicidal agreement?
Zanu Fianna Fáil's Ray Burke, the only Minister (so far)to be given
a jail sentence for fraud.

This so called "governing" of this country is such a sick joke !!!
 


Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
654
When Norway discovered oil and gas off its coast, it promptly Semi/Nationalized it.
Bringing in experts from Multinational Oil companies, it founded
Statoil and used its resources to build it's own economy - Including the revenue earned by Statoil in Ireland.

Ireland is the only country in the world that gave it's
Oil/Gas resources away for NOTHING.
Yes, we will get Corporation Tax similar to that which we
receive from any Multinational, but the raw resource is given to Shell for nothing.
The man who signed this economically suicidal agreement?
Zanu Fianna Fáil's Ray Burke, the only Minister (so far)to be given
a jail sentence for fraud.

This so called "governing" of this country is such a sick joke !!!
Frankly TC in spite of the fact that I completely agree with your sentiments you are wasting your time. It won't be long now before one the horsemen of the kleptocracy is along to throw a few slurs against you along the lines of numpty, tree hugger or the like.

BTW you can bet your bottom dollar that someone was paid handsomely for their services in this deal. However unless an oil industry insider whistleblower decides to disclose what went on behind the veil of secrecy in the meetings between themselves and a few unsavoury political characters from our past we will never know.

Maybe someday when we are long gone our grandkids will get to see what secret accounts in the likes of Lichtenstein, our grubby little elite had for the squirrelling away of the loot for their treason.
 

Warren Poynt

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,139
Yes, Burke was a corrupt scoundrel.

He was found to have been corrupt by the Flood Tribunal and subsequently was sentenced to six months imprisonment for failing to make correct tax returns by failing to disclose monies given to him. I know this does not tell the entire story of Burke's misdeeds as a FF Minister but one has to be careful to avoid any hint of libel with this slimy character who apparently has 'not gone away'.

I suspect Burke on behalf of the FF/PD Govt concluded a legal contract with Royal Dutch Shell over the exploitation of the Corrib gas field. Such a contract is almost certainly legally binding.

But going forward there is no reason why more equitable terms cannot be secured in any other/future Irish offshore find/s.

Problem now is, the economy is bust.......broken by Burke's fellow FF Cabinet 'colleagues'.

We have no exploration money set aside from the wasted Celtic Tiger years.

The PPARS (Mary Harney/PDs) debacle and the e-voting machines scandal (Martin Cullen ex-PD/FF) would have provided quarter of a billion Euros to give a head start to the type of thing you are suggesting.

Question is: can we learn any lessons from Norway. Should we take example from our Viking cousins and approach them with a view to jointly discovering and harnessing new natural resources under our sea beds ?

They (the Norwegians) are coming to the end of some of their fields in the North Sea.
But they have both the money and expertise and I feel sure would be keen to join with a fellow friendly European country in exploring and developing new gas/oil/ and possibly mineral territories.

It would seem like a win/win situation for both our countries.

How about it ?
 

bkeith

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
1,576
When Norway discovered oil and gas off its coast, it promptly Semi/Nationalized it.
Bringing in experts from Multinational Oil companies, it founded
Statoil and used its resources to build it's own economy - Including the revenue earned by Statoil in Ireland.

Ireland is the only country in the world that gave it's
Oil/Gas resources away for NOTHING.
Yes, we will get Corporation Tax similar to that which we
receive from any Multinational, but the raw resource is given to Shell for nothing.
The man who signed this economically suicidal agreement?
Zanu Fianna Fáil's Ray Burke, the only Minister (so far)to be given
a jail sentence for fraud.

This so called "governing" of this country is such a sick joke !!!
There are about 30 billion cubic metres in the Corrib field. To give an idea of what that's worth in bulk, Russia wants to charge Ukraine €180 per 1000 square metre of natural gas - that's about €5.4 billion of gas. Every year the USA produces 600 billion cubic metres, and Russia about 700 billion cubic metres. We are currently borrowing €20billion a year.
 

Islandeady

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Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
695
There are about 30 billion cubic metres in the Corrib field. To give an idea of what that's worth in bulk, Russia wants to charge Ukraine €180 per 1000 square metre of natural gas - that's about €5.4 billion of gas. Every year the USA produces 600 billion cubic metres, and Russia about 700 billion cubic metres. We are currently borrowing €20billion a year.

Lets not forget that if Ray Burke gave it away "For nothing" why wasn't there a stampede of Oil and Gas companies hoping to fill their boots? There has only been 23 exploratory wells drilled by Oil and Gas companies off the Irish coast. Now wave energy! if the technology can be developed to make it a cost effective way of producing electricity then Ireland can fill its boots. Unfortunately that technology is the guts of a decade away if not more.
 

Tigris Celtica

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Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
503
There are about 30 billion cubic metres in the Corrib field. To give an idea of what that's worth in bulk, Russia wants to charge Ukraine €180 per 1000 square metre of natural gas - that's about €5.4 billion of gas.
Square metres of gas ? :? I'm not sure what your €5.4 billion valuation is meant to refer to.
 

wombat

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Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,385
Don't be a fool - To anyone with reasonable intelligence the statement obviously applies to Gas in the case of Ireland and Gas and/or Oil in the case of other countries.
Oil and gas are not interchangeable, oil is far easier to exploit and transport, it is far more valuable.
 

ibis

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
There are about 30 billion cubic metres in the Corrib field. To give an idea of what that's worth in bulk, Russia wants to charge Ukraine €180 per 1000 square metre of natural gas - that's about €5.4 billion of gas. Every year the USA produces 600 billion cubic metres, and Russia about 700 billion cubic metres. We are currently borrowing €20billion a year.
Current prices are about $140 per thousand cubic metres on the open market (rather than over the Russian barrel, so to speak), which gives a value of about €2.92bn for the whole field currently.

That's the value of the field, though, without any costs involved in production. Yeah, it would keep us going for a week or so, and piss off the entire oil industry, who would then factor in the risks of nationalisation when it comes to exploring the Irish offshore. As it currently stands, we're due somewhere between 25% and 40% of the profits on the field with no risk. The Irish offshore, unlike the Norwegian sector of the North Sea, is very deep water, very bad weather conditions, unknown geology, small broken up fields, very limited discoveries - generally at the outer limits of both technology and economics. Further, when the Norwegians started in 1965, they took less tax than us - a 10% royalty on production, balanced against 9% income tax relief on corporate tax for onshore activities.

Compared to the Norwegians, we're roughly where they were in 1965 - they only formed Statoil (in 1972) after the discovery of Ekofisk in 1969 and the identification of several other large prospects. Just to put Corrib in perspective, the Norwegian share alone of Ekofisk is estimated at 156 bn cu.m. of gas and 3.3 billion barrels of oil - the largest find in the history of the North Sea. If someone finds a prospect the size of Ekofisk in the Irish offshore, then it'll be time to talk about a national Irish oil company. At the moment, though, this is all just wishful thinking - there's no magic money tree out there.
 

ellie08

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Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
12,550
Surely the decision was not Burke's alone? What in God's name was the reason for giving away such a valuable resource?
 

bkeith

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Apr 17, 2010
Messages
1,576
Lets not forget that if Ray Burke gave it away "For nothing" why wasn't there a stampede of Oil and Gas companies hoping to fill their boots? There has only been 23 exploratory wells drilled by Oil and Gas companies off the Irish coast. Now wave energy! if the technology can be developed to make it a cost effective way of producing electricity then Ireland can fill its boots. Unfortunately that technology is the guts of a decade away if not more.
Not exactly there is a 25% corporation tax, this could be alot higher, but at the time there was very few oil/gas companies willing to waste money drilling exploratory wells of the the Irish coast, When better quality/more profitable gas fields were to be found else where. The value of Corrib field could also, fall as more Russian fields are discovered. Forcing Shell et al. to cease operations at the corrib field.
 

ellie08

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Nov 2, 2008
Messages
12,550
Not exactly there is a 25% corporation tax, this could be alot higher, but at the time there was very few oil/gas companies willing to waste money drilling exploratory wells of the the Irish coast, When better quality/more profitable gas fields were to be found else where. The value of Corrib field could also, fall as more Russian fields are discovered. Forcing Shell et al. to cease operations at the corrib field.
So Shell are paying the corporation tax out of the goodness of their hearts, with the notion that they will not profit from the gas field. They are in effect doing us a favour paying tax.
 
Joined
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Messages
22,910
So how much have Shell now invested in Corrib without gaining a single penny of revenue ?

Is it 500 million or a Billion but people wish the state to all of sudden find the expertise to do this or buy it in with no guarantee of profit.

Oil companies will take the risk so let them do it, however once the infrastructure is in there is something else that can be added on to.

Can someone tell me what expertise the Irish state has solely in developing Oil and Gas resources ?

If Corrib fails after 6 montsh we have no risk.
 

Tigris Celtica

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Aug 26, 2009
Messages
503
Oil and gas are not interchangeable, oil is far easier to exploit and transport, it is far more valuable.
Where exactly did I ever say they were ? ? - Totally irrelevant post which only compounds your earlier stupid post.
 

Tigris Celtica

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Aug 26, 2009
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people wish the state to all of sudden find the expertise to do this or buy it in with no guarantee of profit.
Have you read the OP ? - Norway brought in experts from Multinational Oil companies and founded Statoil. Do you believe Ireland was somehow incapable of doing the same ? ? If so, why ? ?
 
Joined
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Messages
22,910
Have you read the OP ? - Norway brought in experts from Multinational Oil companies and founded Statoil. Do you believe Ireland was somehow incapable of doing the same ? ? If so, why ? ?
Statoil created years after oil find and you can bet the Oil companies who went in charged in todays figures millions to do so.

Given drilling off Irish coast has been going on for close to 40 years and little success then the idea that we should spend billions on speculation is a nonsense.
 

HP

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Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
254
Surely the decision was not Burke's alone? What in God's name was the reason for giving away such a valuable resource?
I know.... wonder who was minister of finance back then.......????
 

Warren Poynt

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Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,139
What about the Minister for Energy and Natural Resources in the soon-to-be new Irish Government getting together with his/her counterpart in Oslo and negotiating a deal along the following lines bearig in mind that Norway has the money, expertise, oil rig manufacturing skills.

1. A five year deal with at least two exploration wells to be drilled each year.

2. Any resources to be discoverd to be split 50/50, with the Norwedigans allowed to offset all costs incurred against tax liabilities on profits. In effect they would be getting their 50 per cent for free in returning for finding reserves........and by all accounts, they are the experts in Western Europe in locating sub-sea resources. If anyone can find it, they can.

3. In return for locating oil/gas, they would be allowed to offset their profits against accumulatd exploration/drilling costs.

4. The deal would be a Govt-to-Govt one with the situation being looked at again at the end of five years.

5. The Irl-Nor deal would not preclude any foreign multinational resources company from prospecting in other areas of Irish waters on terms to be mutually agreed before hand.

If we gave away all the gas in the Corrib Field for free to Shell,subject only to tax on profits, a Govt to Govt deal like the one I have suggested would be a win/win for Ireland and Norway. They have the money, expertise, drilling rig capabilities etc. They want to discover new acreage........and we have that acreage in abundance.

It would seem to me to be a marrriage made in Heaven.

Or am I being naive ?
 

ibis

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
Have you read the OP ? - Norway brought in experts from Multinational Oil companies and founded Statoil. Do you believe Ireland was somehow incapable of doing the same ? ? If so, why ? ?
Because we don't have an Ekofisk-sized field to make it worthwhile. You can talk this to death if you like, but it's a pointless waste of time. We don't have "petroleum resources" any more than a guy with a goldfish has "fishing resources".

And the tax on the "most profitable fields" rises to 40% - came in a couple of years ago, courtesy of the much-maligned Eamon Ryan.
 

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