Ireland. Don't Pay. Walk Away.



Padraigin

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Sep 22, 2006
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628
The calls for default are growing. Much talk of Ireland being a "small open economy" as some sort of weak point for us now and making it necessary for us to shoulder the burden of hundreds of billions of Euro debt when in previous times the "small open economy" line was a badge of pride.

Surely we, as a small open economy, are in a really good position to bounce back quickly post default where as larger countries who have done the same would be more difficult to manage after the act?

Government talking from both sides of their arse again?

Absolutely.

If you look at a number of articles written by ecnomists that have been appearing in recent days, most have recommended default as the better option in purely economic terms.

For a small nation like Ireland to assume the magnitude of the debt being offered by the EU/IMF as "help" would destroy the entire economic base of the country and put generations of Irish into servitude to foreign masters.

That the Irish governnment is even contemplating doing this boggles the mind.

Default offers short term pain and long term gain. However, if you plan and prepare for default ahead of time, the pain can be minimized so that the bad part is over in a matter of weeks.

Then, the crisis is over, the debt is gone, some hard lessons will have been learned, and everyone can contemplate how to punish those who created this mess.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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we are 3 times the contagion of lehmans. Message for negotiaters - do not accept any terms from the imf. Dictate our terms to them.

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vanla sighs

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Padraigin

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Quit negotiating with the EU and the IMF. The fact that anyone is doing it at all implies that the Irish people are contemplating assuming a debt that will destroy them and their country for generations. If all you are worried about is the interest rate, you are already accepting destruction.

The better solution is to negate the debt in a legal, lawful way without an actual "default."Everyone needs to remember Article 27 of the Constitution. Assuming this kind of debt for generations meets the criteria to require a vote by the Irish people. And if you read the article, you will realize that it takes fewer votes to put this issue to popular vote than it does for a vote of no confidence. All it takes is a majority in the Seanead and one-third of the Dail, and then the Irish people themselves get to decide if they are willing to beggar themselves, their children, and their grandchildren in order for foreign bond holders not to lose money on an investment in their portfolio.

I find it hard to imagine how anyone could put together an argument that this would be a good thing for Ireland.

The spin right now is that Ireland "must" assume the debt. That is a lie.

Ireland has two ways to get out of from under this debt: (1) the usual way that other countries do - simply default; and (2) a perfectly legal and lawful way provided by Article 27 of the Constitution.

The constitutional path is something that Ireland has that no other country has. If the referendum is worded in such a way that not only do the Irish people say no to assuming the debt but that they also deny that those who incurred this debt on their behalf had authority to do so, that would be a determination that the debt was unlawful and would legally nullify the whole thing.

Those foreign bond holders knew that Ireland was a constitutional republic when they bought those bonds. They knew that they were taking a risk, like all investors do when they put their money at risk in making an investment. They knew that, if it came to the point where the money had to be paid by the Irish government, the Irish people had constitutional right to say no. That was a business risk that they assumed, so they should be required to accept the consequences like all investors have to do when one of their investments goes bad.

The Irish have a Constitution that offers them a clean and lawful way out of this mess. They need to use it before it is too late.
 
Last edited:

chimina

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Apr 23, 2010
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100
Quit negotiating with the EU and the IMF. The fact that anyone is doing it at all implies that the Irish people are contemplating assuming a debt that will destroy them and their country for generations. If all you are worried about is the interest rate, you are already accepting destruction.

The better solution is to negate the debt in a legal, lawful way without an actual "default."Everyone needs to remember Article 27 of the Constitution. Assuming this kind of debt for generations meets the criteria to require a vote by the Irish people. And if you read the article, you will realize that it takes fewer votes to put this issue to popular vote than it does for a vote of no confidence. All it takes is a majority in the Seanead and one-third of the Dail, and then the Irish people themselves get to decide if they are willing to beggar themselves, their children, and their grandchildren in order for foreign bond holders not to lose money on an investment in their portfolio.

I find it hard to imagine how anyone could put together an argument that this would be a good thing for Ireland.

The spin right now is that Ireland "must" assume the debt. That is a lie.

Ireland has two ways to get out of from under this debt: (1) the usual way that other countries do - simply default; and (2) a perfectly legal and lawful way provided by Article 27 of the Constitution.

The constitutional path is something that Ireland has that no other country has. If the referendum is worded in such a way that not only do the Irish people say no to assuming the debt but that they also deny that those who incurred this debt on their behalf had no authority to do so, that would be a determination that the debt was unlawful and would legally nullify the whole thing.

Those foreign bond holders knew that Ireland was a constitutional republic when they bought those bonds. They knew that they were taking a risk, like all investors do when they put their money at risk in making an investment. They knew that, if it came to the point where the money had to be paid by the Irish government, the Irish people had constitutional right to say no. That was a business risk that they assumed, so they should be required to accept the consequences like all investors have to do when one of their investments goes bad.

The Irish have a Constitution that offers them a clean and lawful way out of this mess. They need to use it before it is too late.
If this is accurate could someone please bring it to the attention of the gombeens in finna gael/labour/greens/finna fail dissenters
 

Black Cat

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Can anyone tell me where the protest thread has gone - I don't want to end up with the ICTU crowd by mistake
 

Green eyed monster

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I agree with the OP, people shouldn't pay other people's debts, it just encourages them to ring up more bad debts that get paid for them. I understand the bondholders have assets of around twenty trillion and aren't short of a few bob either, so they could afford to take a hit for their poor business strategies.

Unfortunately there is no universal 'WE' in his situation even where Ireland is concerned (never mind a Europe-wide 'WE' as evidenced by the attempts by some Euro leaders to take personal advantage of our situation with corp taxes). There is us and then is our Government/elites and their perspectives about what we should do - which may not be in our interests.

This is why things like Bilderberg remain nonetheless important (even if even using that word can get you silenced on this forum) when it comes to trying to ascertain the motivations of our political class at times when they seem to go renegade against the country.
 

Cennetig

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Oct 28, 2010
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What parties (if any) are putting forward default as a policy if elected in GE?

If no parties are advocating default then it's testament to the great health of the Irish "democracy"... isn't it?
 

Illustro

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Jun 27, 2009
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What parties (if any) are putting forward default as a policy if elected in GE?

If no parties are advocating default then it's testament to the great health of the Irish "democracy"... isn't it?
Yup. Nail on head.

Obviously Joe Higgins party are, however it is a noteworthy observation that none of the established mainstream parties are discussing the fact that we have more options than simply to drop our trousers and bend over and then give out about it afterwards.

A one party state.


 

EvotingMachine0197

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Feb 17, 2006
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What parties (if any) are putting forward default as a policy if elected in GE?

If no parties are advocating default then it's testament to the great health of the Irish "democracy"... isn't it?
Pretty much everyone I've heard in the last 3 days is suggesting an orderly default / restructuring / debt resolution thingy.

All except the elected Oireachtas members that is.
 

vanla sighs

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msteiner

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Nov 20, 2010
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Ireland has two option if it expects to survive.

1. Pass the budget immediately and call a general election right afterward.
2. Call a general election immediately and pass the budget right afterward.
 

vanla sighs

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Ireland has two option if it expects to survive.

1. Pass the budget immediately and call a general election right afterward.
2. Call a general election immediately and pass the budget right afterward.
Option 2. And don't sign any IMF/EU agreement. Then default on the bad banks. Then move on, won't be easy but we can do it if we grow a pair. It's a better option then selling out the country and the people and indebting us for generations.
 


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