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Ireland's changing relationship with Europe after Brexit.

yosef shompeter

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Dec 4, 2011
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The secret history of the EU, written on an Italian prison island, reveals why the project is doomed 

A revealing account of the inner workings of the minds of "those with there hands on the tiller" in Europe. Merkel, Hollande and Renzi. The author/of the article maintains that there is a plan to create an ever-closer Union and a strong effort to overcome any sense of nationalism. Worth a read.

But it seems that Ireland can not really thrive (or survive) with a unitary, homogenous state. I've taken it under three headings:
Economy
Our success since the fifties has been on the basis of inviting in multinational companies by offering a low tax rate. Many European states view that as not being homogenouus ( the same) as their rate and hence it is unfair.
But once Brexit is over and done with, we will once again be "the island behind the island". How are we going to get a multinational to locate in Ballymagash? The counter arguement is that these firms could locate in Singapore, Israel or any other suitable non-Eu country. Then the EU loses along with Ireland.
Social
The great wave of migration across the Mediterranean is continuing. The first ports of call are Greece, Italy and Spain. But also Germany, Sweden Denmark and France have taken large nrs of refugees. You can bet your bottom dollar that the Greeks and Italians and others look at the new arrivals and say: "Hey this is not equal to the nrs taken in by (you name it: Latvia? Finland? Ireland) that's not fair. The should be distributed equally. But Northern Europe taking in 1, 2 or 10 million refugees is not going to solve the problem. The U.N. figures say that there are 60 Million displaced people in the world.
Defense
With the continuing wars in the Ukraine and Syria it's probably a matter of time before it comes to some sort of military exchange between the Soviet Union...ups! call that Russia and Nato. There are efforts underway to create an EU fighting force. but really, can we send in the Garda Siochána against the Red Army. If there is anything we can add in matters of security it's in the area of diplomacy so that any future military spat can be limited and for that to be effective we need to remain neutral.

We need to tackle this at two levels:
1) Find out where we can be of assistance in helping the European project along
2) Having the backbone to stand up and telling the EU leaders that their directives are just not suitable. Each country should have its own tailor made approach to the problems it faces. What happened to that policy of subsidiarity?
 


Hans Von Horn

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Sep 4, 2015
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1,672
Ireland lacks the numbers to derive influence with Europe. We had to grovel to get into the EU and we have reinforced and developed a Jawohl Culture towards our European Masters. We had the begging bowl decades and sacrificed Fisheries for Agriculture and a few Roads.
Now the 2050 targets will require the abandonment of meat eating other than as a kind of energy and nutrient recovery for dairy cattle when they come to the end of their productive lives. Dairying will be abandoned for lentils mushrooms, nuts etc.

We need to get away form Europe
 

Vega1447

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Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
5,783
The secret history of the EU, written on an Italian prison island, reveals why the project is doomed

A revealing account of the inner workings of the minds of "those with there hands on the tiller" in Europe. Merkel, Hollande and Renzi. The author/of the article maintains that there is a plan to create an ever-closer Union and a strong effort to overcome any sense of nationalism. Worth a read.

But it seems that Ireland can not really thrive (or survive) with a unitary, homogenous state. I've taken it under three headings:
Economy
Our success since the fifties has been on the basis of inviting in multinational companies by offering a low tax rate. Many European states view that as not being homogenouus ( the same) as their rate and hence it is unfair.
But once Brexit is over and done with, we will once again be "the island behind the island". How are we going to get a multinational to locate in Ballymagash? The counter arguement is that these firms could locate in Singapore, Israel or any other suitable non-Eu country. Then the EU loses along with Ireland.
Social
The great wave of migration across the Mediterranean is continuing. The first ports of call are Greece, Italy and Spain. But also Germany, Sweden Denmark and France have taken large nrs of refugees. You can bet your bottom dollar that the Greeks and Italians and others look at the new arrivals and say: "Hey this is not equal to the nrs taken in by (you name it: Latvia? Finland? Ireland) that's not fair. The should be distributed equally. But Northern Europe taking in 1, 2 or 10 million refugees is not going to solve the problem. The U.N. figures say that there are 60 Million displaced people in the world.
Defense
With the continuing wars in the Ukraine and Syria it's probably a matter of time before it comes to some sort of military exchange between the Soviet Union...ups! call that Russia and Nato. There are efforts underway to create an EU fighting force. but really, can we send in the Garda Siochána against the Red Army. If there is anything we can add in matters of security it's in the area of diplomacy so that any future military spat can be limited and for that to be effective we need to remain neutral.

We need to tackle this at two levels:
1) Find out where we can be of assistance in helping the European project along
2) Having the backbone to stand up and telling the EU leaders that their directives are just not suitable. Each country should have its own tailor made approach to the problems it faces. What happened to that policy of subsidiarity?
What's the problem with a European Army/Navy/Air Force?

Small countries need defence pacts to survive as we can (at best) deter an attack on our own.

NATO is a Cold War relic.

What is the objection *in principle* to a EU military?

Sure there would need to be treaties securing rights of small countries. And the force could only act in self defence of the EU.

I see no honour or self interest in staying "neutral" if (for example) Russia attacked the Baltic States.
 

Cynicist

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Dec 22, 2010
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11,128
So long as we have a policy of no/low tax incentive prostitution we will have a need for the usual fall-back of emmigration of our youngest and best.

The EU has kept our farming community in a style to which they have become accustomed and the tax man has now caught the falling apple which will bring us down to earth with the Autumn leaves.

Jobs bought on the behind-closed-doors tax deal was a give-away which was never ours to give and was always a dodgy and dishonest way to get laid.

If we left the EU we would become dependent on the British government and get ruled by Whitehall rather than Brussells or Frankfurt. Which would be the better option - given our history, I would think the latter.
 

Spanner Island

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Feb 22, 2011
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24,203
What's the problem with a European Army/Navy/Air Force?

Small countries need defence pacts to survive as we can (at best) deter an attack on our own.

NATO is a Cold War relic.

What is the objection *in principle* to a EU military?

Sure there would need to be treaties securing rights of small countries. And the force could only act in self defence of the EU.

I see no honour or self interest in staying "neutral" if (for example) Russia attacked the Baltic States.
I can't imagine any such force being deployed to do much other than a bit of peace keeping, border patrols on the Russian frontier and maybe some rescue work in the Med.... but apart from that I reckon it would mostly be a confined to barracks kind of thing...

27 countries can never agree on much... so God only knows how they'd ever agree on deploying an EU military...

As for Ireland and our relationship with the EU... I suspect it will cool a bit (as it should imo)... as will our relationship with Britain...

Brexit has changed things for us probably more than for anyone else including the Brits.
 

Karloff

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Jun 5, 2015
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Ireland (and to an extent other 'peripheral' EU countries) have been on a collision course with Europe for some time. Europe wants the dissolution of the independence of the nation states, especially the small ones and it wants control over our tax affairs. EU and Germany would quite like our FDI. A game is being played by which our politicians seem to think they can forestall the ambitions of the EU - but even if they think they can, for how long? I was watching on the Vincent Browne show last night how one guy told us the EU haven't even ratified the tax guarantees yet that they promised us to get us to pass the Lisbon Treaty. They treat us like total mugs and our politicians have been mostly happy to play the part (bailing out the European banking system), i am still not sure whose side our politicians are even on.

Our relationship with the EU will not remain as it is but all our strategising seems to based on an assumption that it will. It's changing by the week in reality.
 

shiel

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Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
17,139
So long as we have a policy of no/low tax incentive prostitution we will have a need for the usual fall-back of emmigration of our youngest and best.

The EU has kept our farming community in a style to which they have become accustomed and the tax man has now caught the falling apple which will bring us down to earth with the Autumn leaves.

Jobs bought on the behind-closed-doors tax deal was a give-away which was never ours to give and was always a dodgy and dishonest way to get laid.

If we left the EU we would become dependent on the British government and get ruled by Whitehall rather than Brussells or Frankfurt. Which would be the better option - given our history, I would think the latter.
That is incredible.

We had 752 years of colonial rule from London.

Land confisations, plantations, destruction of economic enterprise, prohibition of education, deprivation of basic political rights, a million dying in a famine in the richest part of the world, failure to implement self rule for the island of Ireland passed by the most powerful parliament in the world etc.

And you want to go back to that.
 

ibis

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12,359
That is incredible.

We had 752 years of colonial rule from London.

Land confisations, plantations, destruction of economic enterprise, prohibition of education, deprivation of basic political rights, a million dying in a famine in the richest part of the world, failure to implement self rule for the island of Ireland passed by the most powerful parliament in the world etc.

And you want to go back to that.
I think "the latter" there is the "Brussels or Frankfurt" option.

Not sure what the OP's linked article has to do with the thread title? Just seems to be a retread of the perfectly standard British eurosceptic "my God the founding fathers wanted a federal Europe! Clearly this must still be what they're striving for!". As if the national leaders of Continental countries in the subsequent 60 years were all somehow selected to carry on the European federal dream, rather than being, well, elected by their public to serve the preferences of that country. Because the British know in their hearts that Continentals are all basically the same, don't have real democracy, and are utterly perfidious.

It's marvellously insulting when you stop to think about it - as though nobody has any real existence except in terms of their relations to Britain, and only then in terms of British ideas of the Continent which sees it as consisting of separate countries only temporarily before it comes under another Napoleon or Hitler. And since there doesn't seem to be a Napoleon or Hitler to hand, it must be Juncker and the EU.

I somehow doubt that Merckel, Hollande, or Renzi see themselves as simply bit players in the glorious march of European unification.
 
Last edited:

Ireniall

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Oct 7, 2011
Messages
8,278
I can't imagine any such force being deployed to do much other than a bit of peace keeping, border patrols on the Russian frontier and maybe some rescue work in the Med.... but apart from that I reckon it would mostly be a confined to barracks kind of thing...

27 countries can never agree on much... so God only knows how they'd ever agree on deploying an EU military...

As for Ireland and our relationship with the EU... I suspect it will cool a bit (as it should imo)... as will our relationship with Britain...

Brexit has changed things for us probably more than for anyone else including the Brits.
I'm reading about the towns in England which have huge Japanese car plants which many countries would give their eye teeth for but which the English felt sufficiently indifferent about that they could contemplate risking their continued presence in their towns by voting heavily for Brexit. I think this kind of complacency, evident also with the prolonged electoral success of the looney left Labour party in the 70s and 80s, is the result of British history in which the benefits of empire and industrialization has induced a kind of not entirely well placed confidence that everything will be fine no matter what because it always was and we're the British after all. Now given our history we would just never make that mistake -would we?
 

midlander12

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Jul 29, 2008
Messages
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I think "the latter" there is the "Brussels or Frankfurt" option.

Not sure what the OP's linked article has to do with the thread title? Just seems to be a retread of the perfectly standard British eurosceptic "my God the founding fathers wanted a federal Europe! Clearly this must still be what they're striving for!". As if the national leaders of Continental countries in the subsequent 60 years were all somehow selected to carry on the European federal dream, rather than being, well, elected by their public to serve the preferences of that country. Because the British know in their hearts that Continentals are all basically the same, don't have real democracy, and are utterly perfidious.

It's marvellously insulting when you stop to think about it - as though nobody has any real existence except in terms of their relations to Britain, and only then in terms of British ideas of the Continent which sees it as consisting of separate countries only temporarily before it comes under another Napoleon or Hitler. And since there doesn't seem to be a Napoleon or Hitler to hand, it must be Juncker and the EU.

I somehow doubt that Merckel, Hollande, or Renzi see themselves as simply bit players in the glorious march of European unification.
At least two of them won't be bit players in anything for much longer as they'll be gone. As regards our 'changing relationship', the Apple affair has neatly contextualized this, and its timing could not be starker. There is little doubt we will become more and more isolated from rest of the EU post-Brexit, whether we want to or not. However, Brexit will only be one of the many political theatres of the next few years - events in France, Holland and possibly Italy may in any event lead to a reversal of the federalist trend and the creation of a looser association of member-states.
 

Ireniall

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I think "the latter" there is the "Brussels or Frankfurt" option.

Not sure what the OP's linked article has to do with the thread title? Just seems to be a retread of the perfectly standard British eurosceptic "my God the founding fathers wanted a federal Europe! Clearly this must still be what they're striving for!". As if the national leaders of Continental countries in the subsequent 60 years were all somehow selected to carry on the European federal dream, rather than being, well, elected by their public to serve the preferences of that country. Because the British know in their hearts that Continentals are all basically the same, don't have real democracy, and are utterly perfidious.

It's marvellously insulting when you stop to think about it - as though nobody has any real existence except in terms of their relations to Britain, and only then in terms of British ideas of the Continent which sees it as consisting of separate countries only temporarily before it comes under another Napoleon or Hitler. And since there doesn't seem to be a Napoleon or Hitler to hand, it must be Juncker and the EU.

I somehow doubt that Merckel, Hollande, or Renzi see themselves as simply bit players in the glorious march of European unification.
It's not that I think that the British majority are as you describe-I think the majority have a kind of subconscious cultural memory of it but the hard core Tories who were the base group who brought Brexit about-they have no idea that they are just another European nation like all of the others.
 

Novos

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Ireland should leave and form EU2 with the UK and the many other countries disaffected with the EU. Norway, Denmark and a few more wouldn't take much persuasion.
 

farnaby

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there is a plan to create an ever-closer Union and a strong effort to overcome any sense of nationalism
The biggest political issue within the EU is big country-small country mistrust, exacerbated by that awkward Top Gun "wingman" scene re-enactment last week.

If big-country EUrophiles really believed in overcoming nationalism then they would advocate breaking up into something like city-states of 5-10 million people each. Equal power among states, with a chance of democratic direction rather than concentrated in the German-French combo.

But it won't happen - even in those states it is nation first, EU second; which leads one to dismiss the linked article's claim of a subterfuge at the very top.
 

ibis

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The biggest political issue within the EU is big country-small country mistrust, exacerbated by that awkward Top Gun "wingman" scene re-enactment last week.

If big-country EUrophiles really believed in overcoming nationalism then they would advocate breaking up into something like city-states of 5-10 million people each. Equal power among states, with a chance of democratic direction rather than concentrated in the German-French combo.

But it won't happen - even in those states it is nation first, EU second; which leads one to dismiss the linked article's claim of a subterfuge at the very top.
It always entertains me that this belief exists happily side by side with the belief that the same countries are rushing forward to create a post-national supra-state.
 

Peppermint

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So long as we have a policy of no/low tax incentive prostitution we will have a need for the usual fall-back of emmigration of our youngest and best.

The EU has kept our farming community in a style to which they have become accustomed and the tax man has now caught the falling apple which will bring us down to earth with the Autumn leaves.

Jobs bought on the behind-closed-doors tax deal was a give-away which was never ours to give and was always a dodgy and dishonest way to get laid.

If we left the EU we would become dependent on the British government and get ruled by Whitehall rather than Brussells or Frankfurt. Which would be the better option - given our history, I would think the latter.

But why has the Apple thing become an issue where the Irish Government insist they must fight?
It's not an issue about the 12.5% as Apple were paying nothing close to this..

And if it's jobs, why were they willing to roll over and accept the Irish public should pay for the banking mess?
How many jobs did that cost us? How many thousands left our shores because we "must" save our banks at any cost?

Meanwhile Apple get some extremely favorable deal where they pay virtually no tax on all the monies they funnel through this country, and NOW OUR POLITICIANS get up on their high horse about this??

If Apple were paying 12.5% on all the monies they were pushing through Ireland, there wouldn't be a problem?
 

Ardillaun

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It always entertains me that this belief exists happily side by side with the belief that the same countries are rushing forward to create a post-national supra-state.
Perhaps post-national for the little countries, more flexibility for the big ones?
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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What's the problem with a European Army/Navy/Air Force?

Small countries need defence pacts to survive as we can (at best) deter an attack on our own.

NATO is a Cold War relic.

What is the objection *in principle* to a EU military?

Sure there would need to be treaties securing rights of small countries. And the force could only act in self defence of the EU.

I see no honour or self interest in staying "neutral" if (for example) Russia attacked the Baltic States.
would suggest a european army would be more likely to attack others for their stuff, weaker countries than defense. Neutrality is about staying out of that aggressive, thieving foreign policy.
 

Analyzer

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Ireland's gombeen establishment will offer the country to be rode, in a manner that would even shame the likes of traitors like John Redmond.
 

sgtharper

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If Apple were paying 12.5% on all the monies they were pushing through Ireland, there wouldn't be a problem?
Because they wouldn't be there in the first place?
 

sgtharper

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Small countries need defence pacts to survive as we can (at best) deter an attack on our own.

NATO is a Cold War relic.
Surely both these statements can't be true at the same time? Most of the countries in NATO are after all, small states. That's exactly why they're in it.
 

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