Irish army parades at Lourdes

Roger

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Kalif said:
Roger said:
Kalif said:
Roger said:
Kalif said:
Its in response to your post implying the church has no power in the republic.

As a tax payer, the state should provide a choice in education.[/

Why? The State does not provide Catholic schools or Church of Ireland schools. Why should it provide you with secular schools. Establish your own. Stop leaving it to the State. I understand the State provides assistance to organisations setting up schools.

The state funds education via taxes, therefore its only reasonable it offers choice in education.[/

It does offer choice. It gives secularists the same opportunity as anyone else to provide schooling for like-minded people.

When did I imply that the Church (which church) had no power in the republic? Of course, the Catholic Church has power in ROI and also in the UK. It owns property so that gives it power.


No the state ships out the running of services to the Catholic church who historically have a monopoly.

It has a moral duty to cater for all members of the community and to provide services, which is the norm in less backward countries.
I thought this thread was about part of the army going to Lourdes at the texpayers' expense. Why are you secularists so obsessed about schools?

No the state ships out the running of services to the Catholic church who historically have a monopoly.

Not true. There are Church of Ireland schools and Presbyterian schools. There are Irish medium schools and Muslim schools. There are Educate To-gether schools.

It has a moral duty to cater for all members of the community and to provide services, which is the norm in less backward countries.

My heavens. You, a secularist, preaching about "a moral duty"!! States have legal duties. States have political duties. Secular states do not have moral duties. That is what is meant by separation of Chruch and State. What are your credentials for pronouncing on morality, including moral duties? Have you a direct line to the Almighty? Leave the moralising to the clergy. We have enough of them making fools of themselves pontificating about morality - which often, by sheer chance, happens to coincide with their own material interests.
 


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The state should provide a choice of education as all modern countries do nor am I intrested in stupid philosophical arguments.

There is no choice of education in the rep, there is a handful of Protestant schools and no secular schools.
 

Inishowen

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If most of the states soldiers are Roman Catholics then I see no harm in them going to Lourdes. By all accounts this pilgrimage is a great oul piss up once all the masses and holy stuff are out of the way.

On a related point: I was asking a retired senior NCO recently about protocol during a remembrance ceremony. When the Last Post was played the Union Jack was lowered to the ground in salute but the Irish Tricolour and the Belgian Tricolour were lowered to half-way (45degrees). 'Different military traditions' I thought, but then the veteran told me that the Tricolour in the Irish army was only saluted to the ground 'in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament' - Is this really in army regulations?
 

Tmesis

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aggressivesecularist said:
Roger said:
My heavens. You, a secularist, preaching about "a moral duty"!! States have legal duties. States have political duties. Secular states do not have moral duties. That is what is meant by separation of Chruch and State. What are your credentials for pronouncing on morality, including moral duties? Have you a direct line to the Almighty? Leave the moralising to the clergy. We have enough of them making fools of themselves pontificating about morality - which often, by sheer chance, happens to coincide with their own material interests.
You'rte mixing up religion and morality. It's annoying, but not uncommon.
Oh, you're at nothing here: Roger has been on my ignore list for a while now. Not worth it. Seriously.
 

Munion

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Kalif said:
The state should provide a choice of education as all modern countries do nor am I intrested in stupid philosophical arguments.

There is no choice of education in the rep, there is a handful of Protestant schools and no secular schools.
There's a brand new Educate Together school not 10 mins walk from my house. I live with one of the teachers. It's a secular school and they have activity days to replace the days kids in religious schools get to practice for Holy Communion/Confirmation.

There should be no choice for education in my opinion, there should just be secular state run education. Religion should be kept in the home and our kids should not be divided by it.

Also there's no mention of numbers who attended that parade in the link you gave.
 
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Munion said:
Kalif said:
The state should provide a choice of education as all modern countries do nor am I intrested in stupid philosophical arguments.

There is no choice of education in the rep, there is a handful of Protestant schools and no secular schools.
There's a brand new Educate Together school not 10 mins walk from my house. I live with one of the teachers. It's a secular school and they have activity days to replace the days kids in religious schools get to practice for Holy Communion/Confirmation.

There should be no choice for education in my opinion, there should just be secular state run education. Religion should be kept in the home and our kids should not be divided by it.

Also there's no mention of numbers who attended that parade in the link you gave.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0523/lourdes.html


There you go as Tom Barry said, the free state army was incapabable of invading the Aran islands yet can send a battalion to Lourdes.


President Mary McAleese is in the French pilgrim town of Lourdes along with 500 members of the Defence Forces to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the shrine.
 

Roger

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Kalif said:
The state should provide a choice of education as all modern countries do nor am I intrested in stupid philosophical arguments.

There is no choice of education in the rep, there is a handful of Protestant schools and no secular schools.[/

Well, then, do something about it.

nor am I intrested in stupid philosophical arguments.

You mean that you have been caught out in an inconsistency. Trying to use morality to strengthen your political argument.
 

stfrancis

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cadets ar not made go to mass or go to lourdes. that is completely incorrect. caddets parade on sunday mornings when in barracks in the curragh. those that wish to attend mass do so in uniform, as it is classified as a working morning. those that donnot wish to attend mass simply do not.
as regards attendance at lourdes agin this is a choice. cadets may or may not attend. those that wish to remain at home in the curragh may do so. an alternative programme is laid on for them. most cadets however chose to attend lourdes as it is enjoyable to meet other members of european armies and surprisingly for those who have never been there, there is usually some good sessions on there during the week.
there is absolutely no coercion of cadets to attend mass or lourdes.
 

Roger

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aggressivesecularist said:
stfrancis said:
cadets ar not made go to mass or go to lourdes. that is completely incorrect. caddets parade on sunday mornings when in barracks in the curragh. those that wish to attend mass do so in uniform, as it is classified as a working morning. those that donnot wish to attend mass simply do not.
as regards attendance at lourdes agin this is a choice. cadets may or may not attend. those that wish to remain at home in the curragh may do so. an alternative programme is laid on for them. most cadets however chose to attend lourdes as it is enjoyable to meet other members of european armies and surprisingly for those who have never been there, there is usually some good sessions on there during the week.
there is absolutely no coercion of cadets to attend mass or lourdes.
But they're being paid when they go? I mean they do it in their work time? That the Irish State is contributing something to their presence there?[/

That is a true statement. BUT none of my money is being used as I live outside the ROI. Nor is any of your money being used as you also live outside the ROI. So it is no business of yours or mine.

This trip by the army or the ROI to Lourdes shows that the ROI is not a secular country - like many of the other countries of the EU. examples UK, Netherlands.
 
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louis bernard said:
"This trip by the army or the ROI to Lourded shows that the ROI is not a secular country - like many of the other countries of the EU. examples UK, Netherlands."

The United Kingdom is not a secular country. The act of settlement copper fastens the fact that it is very much a protestant country.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
 

louis bernard

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Kalif said:
louis bernard said:
"This trip by the army or the ROI to Lourded shows that the ROI is not a secular country - like many of the other countries of the EU. examples UK, Netherlands."

The United Kingdom is not a secular country. The act of settlement copper fastens the fact that it is very much a protestant country.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
The United Kingdom can socially cater for my Aunt Fanny’s dinner party; the indisputable fact of the matter is that it is a legally defined protestant country.
 

Alliance

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louis bernard said:
Kalif said:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208[/url]

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
The United Kingdom can socially cater for my Aunt Fanny’s dinner party; the indisputable fact of the matter is that it is a legally defined protestant country.[/quote:3nhik3i8]

so?
 

louis bernard

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Alliance said:
louis bernard said:
Kalif said:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208[/url]

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
The United Kingdom can socially cater for my Aunt Fanny’s dinner party; the indisputable fact of the matter is that it is a legally defined protestant country.
so?[/quote:1svj4c2m]

So? It was stated that the united kingdom was a secular country, I pointed out that it is not.
 
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louis bernard said:
Kalif said:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208[/url]

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
The United Kingdom can socially cater for my Aunt Fanny’s dinner party; the indisputable fact of the matter is that it is a legally defined protestant country.[/quote:2b3gusvn]



Legally defined but not socially defined, thats the difference.

You cant compare the socio religious culture of the rep with that of England.
 

Roger

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Kalif said:
louis bernard said:
"This trip by the army or the ROI to Lourded shows that the ROI is not a secular country - like many of the other countries of the EU. examples UK, Netherlands."

The United Kingdom is not a secular country. The act of settlement copper fastens the fact that it is very much a protestant country.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... Id=1565208

Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education, healthcare, social provision etc,all of which are secular thats the difference.
"Yes but the UK socially caters for the non religious in education"

Not in the part of the UK in which I live. In Northern ireland the Protestant churches have a statutory right to appoint 50% of the voting Governors of all State schools.

In the ROI the government does cater for the non-religious in education. It does so by providing assistance to Educate Together secular schools. It even provides more assistance to them than it does to Catholic schools. I cannot understand why Catholics do not challenge that disrrimination in court.
 

lapsedmethodist

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The brother was once a cadet. He's now a non-cadet ie an ex-cadet eg a former cadet ie past cadet.
Now, please read the following slowly.....when he was a cadet.... in the Defence Force.....said he was a Catholic.....he didn't go to Mass except on days when there was a major function ie some visit or another by a Catholic dignitary.
The thing about Lebanon, East Timor was a side issue which is irrelevant; and I apologise for it.[/quote:19zfxj4o]

I know for a fact that all cadets must attend mass on Sundays in the miliary college at the Curragh.
Bulls^&*( !! Protestant cadets aren't forced to go to Mass !! They aren't forced to go to Cof I either. The trip to Lourdes is marching, praying ( or pretending to if you're a prod ) and drinking with cadets of other nations.
 


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