Irish citizen captured fighting with ISIS


Ardillaun

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The Government has always been eligible to remove citizenship from people in certain circumstances. What the Harper government did is bring the laws up to date with regard to international terrorism.
Revocation in Canada can be initiated by the Minister for fraud in obtaining citizenship and the case then goes to the Federal Court. Harper’s law no longer applies.
 

danger here

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He has dual citizenship, he was born in Belarus, let them deal with him. As soon as he decided to fight for ISIS he lost all entitlement to anything from this country. The best outcome would be for the Kurd's to hang him or behead him, whatever so long as he no longer draws breath. I don't want him and his family back here, they will cost us a fortune to monitor and you can be damned sure that his family will be given anonymity and put straight into a house here as soon as they are back in the country.
I doubt he's ever been to Belarus, let alone born there. As I said yesterday, whoever reviewed the original visa / asylum application just saw Belarus thought sure it's all the same, one of those quare countries . Anyone with a basic interest in current affairs in Eurasia around the year 2000 would have saw that name and thought hold on a minute could this lad have been coming from fighting in Grozny perhaps...

Bekmirzaev is a very specific Chechen, Azeri or Uzbek name, of very obvious islamic origin, Bekmir . It's like having a North Korean with a passport claiming to be called Paddy Murphy. Theoretically possible, but should set off alarm bells anyway, particularly as I say Chechnya was the Syria of that time. Put it another way, not a chance the Yanks would have given him US citizenship with a name like that. There are actually twice as many declared (as opposed to Dympna with her Buddha statues in the jacks) Buddhists in Ireland as there are Muslims in Belarus (0.1% of the population). As opposed to 95+ % where people with names ending in aev reside.

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Beachcomber

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He has dual citizenship, he was born in Belarus, let them deal with him. As soon as he decided to fight for ISIS he lost all entitlement to anything from this country. The best outcome would be for the Kurd's to hang him or behead him, whatever so long as he no longer draws breath. I don't want him and his family back here, they will cost us a fortune to monitor and you can be damned sure that his family will be given anonymity and put straight into a house here as soon as they are back in the country.

That would save a bullet.
 

Ardillaun

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I doubt he's ever been to Belarus, let alone born there. As I said yesterday, whoever reviewed the original visa / asylum application just saw Belarus thought sure it's all the same, one of those quare countries . Anyone with a basic interest in current affairs in Eurasia around the year 2000 would have saw that name and thought hold on a minute could this lad have been coming from fighting in Grozny perhaps...

Bekmirzaev is a very specific Chechen, Azeri or Uzbek name, of very obvious islamic origin, Bekmir . It's like having a North Korean with a passport claiming to be called Paddy Murphy. Theoretically possible, but should set off alarm bells anyway, particularly as I say Chechnya was the Syria of that time. Put it another way, not a chance the Yanks would have given him US citizenship with a name like that. There are actually twice as many declared (as opposed to Dympna with her Buddha statues in the jacks) Buddhists in Ireland as there are Muslims in Belarus (0.1% of the population). As opposed to 95+ % where people with names ending in aev reside.
According to Wiki, there are 45,000 Muslims in Belarus:

Islam in Belarus - Wikipedia

So it’s possible. He could also be from the Caucasus or Russia generally and his name does have that look of one from Chechnya or thereabouts. It’s not like a nom de guerre or one you’d choose after conversion but who knows? I’d be surprised if he hails from Uzbekistan, though, judging from his appearance. His features are Caucasian in both senses of the word.
 
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danger here

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According to Wiki, there are 45,000 Muslims in Belarus:

Islam in Belarus - Wikipedia

So it’s possible. He could also be from the Caucasus or Russia generally and his name does have that look of one from Chechnya or thereabouts. It’s not like a nom de guerre or one you’d choose after conversion but who knows? I’d be surprised if he hails from Uzbekistan, though, judging from his appearance. His features are Caucasian in both senses of the word.
12 years ago there were 45,000 (the most recent I could find was 2013 with 19,000, I take your point though.
 

Ardillaun

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12 years ago there were 45,000 (the most recent I could find was 2013 with 19,000, I take your point though.
Maybe I was too hasty there to dismiss Uzbekistan. All that’s clear now is that it’s a Slavicized Muslim name. For what it’s worth, I see somebody on Reddit is saying he’s believed to be of Chechen origin.

Alexandr Ruzmatovich Bekmirzaev, believed to be of Chechen origin, and who once resided in #Dublin, has been captured in #Syria during the last sweep of ISIS controlled territory. : Identitarians
 
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recedite

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Seems like a Chechen alright.
Would be interesting if anyone in Dublin ever saw or photocopied a Belorussian passport.
More likely he just didnt want to say he was a Chechen,because of the obvious possibility of terrorist links in a past life.
Sure we have boatloads of people arriving in Europe, who are quite obviously from sub-Saharan Africa, and who are claiming to be Syrians. "Sorry no passport, I was in such a hurry I had to flee without it"

The annoying thing is, it would be very easy to check. All you need is one person from each "Refugee country" working for the immigration authorities. A five minute chat with the incoming asylum seeker would sort out whether they were lying or not.
 

Ardillaun

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Incorrect - some have taken them.
I don’t think that proves they wanted to take them. Nothing short of permanent incarceration or execution will eliminate the serious risk they pose to the host country.

I can see the arguments for revoking the citizenship of persons with another citizenship although this is often a symbolic move under the circumstances. One of my principal concerns is not for terrorists at all but for other naturalized citizens. As Canadian PM Harper explicitly admitted, such revocations could ultimately be expanded to many crimes, making dual citizenship a perilous proposition.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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He has dual citizenship, he was born in Belarus, let them deal with him. As soon as he decided to fight for ISIS he lost all entitlement to anything from this country. The best outcome would be for the Kurd's to hang him or behead him, whatever so long as he no longer draws breath. I don't want him and his family back here, they will cost us a fortune to monitor and you can be damned sure that his family will be given anonymity and put straight into a house here as soon as they are back in the country.
Of course nobody wants a scumbag POS like him. If he's an Irish citizen upon taking up with ISIS, though, then we bear responsibility for handling him whether we expatriate him or not.

Forget the 'doing the right thing' side of that argument for a moment. It's in our self-interest. If we take the position you're advocating, then Ireland stands to be the clear loser of it.

As I mentioned, how many dual citizens of the UK/Ireland exist for example? Australia is even attempting to claim citizenship 'eligibility' with another nation suffices to expatriate an OZ citizen and dump them on the other. Given NI and the historical and continuing fluidity of migration back and forth between GB and Ireland, the number of UK/Ireland dual citizens and eligibles has to be in the millions.

How about US/Ireland duals or eligibles? What a gift to Trump if he got wind that he could expatriate US citizens with dual citizenship or eligibility with Ireland and stick us with them. Canadian, OZ or NZ duals or eligibles, etc?

We have the highest likelihood of having duals/eligibles with a wide variety of powerful, populated and immigration-themed nations with far more odds than us of grooming ISIS types within them.

We have a chance by working with all the other smaller and less powerful nations to keep us collectively from being the ISIS landfill for the globe's big fellas. We don't have an argument never mind a cause against it if we likewise engage in 'banishment'.

It's not merely the responsible argument that I raised IMO...we need the argument.

That said, I'm certainly not arguing for lenient treatment. I'd expatriate him from citizenship as a traitor and detain him permanently as a war criminal and ongoing threat. Besides Irish prisons, I'd be fine with entering into international agreements to house him and the like at any facilities abroad that will permanently remove ISIS members from society. I'd make him available for extradition for war crimes and other prosecutions wherever requested. I'm just saying it's not justifiable or in our national self-interests to claim we wash our hands of him and dump him onto others.
 
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madmullah

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It's surprising that Islamic terrorists haven't staged something spectacular in Dublin yet. One suspects a trio of knife-wielders would be around a lot longer than they were in London:

Police praised for stopping London Bridge attack in minutes | UK news | The Guardian
Ireland is considered as a safe haven for islamic radicalism through a combination on lack of concern of politicians,/public, imcompetence by the Gardai, a legal system that completely favours the criminal and which the legal profession has a vested interest in maintaining, and a total lack of appreciation of the strategic national importance of having an effective defence and security system .
So why should they rock the boat when they can carry on their planning, logistics and radicalistaion here without being troubled and if they are so called refugees , new immigrants they are well looked after.
 

madmullah

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Any Irish citizen who freely joins a foreigh army should have his citizenship revoked. It does not matter whether it is the British, US, French, ISIS, Boko Haram etc it should be revoked. I say this as someone who for a period in my early twenties after my time in the DF participated in a foreign war which I now regret.
Joining foreign armies will usually involve swearing an oath of allegience to another state that may result ina situarion where you may be required to undertake operations to undermine the state of which you are a citizen.
 

Ardillaun

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So why should they rock the boat when they can carry on their planning, logistics and radicalistaion here without being troubled and if they are so called refugees , new immigrants they are well looked after.
Because that’s what they do. You could apply the same arguments to Canada but it didn’t save us from attacks. Scorpions are going to sting.
 

Beachcomber

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Any Irish citizen who freely joins a foreigh army should have his citizenship revoked. It does not matter whether it is the British, US, French, ISIS, Boko Haram etc it should be revoked. I say this as someone who for a period in my early twenties after my time in the DF participated in a foreign war which I now regret.
Joining foreign armies will usually involve swearing an oath of allegience to another state that may result ina situarion where you may be required to undertake operations to undermine the state of which you are a citizen.

So you'd have no problem with the government revoking your citizenship?
 

Beachcomber

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Ireland is considered as a safe haven for islamic radicalism through a combination on lack of concern of politicians,/public, imcompetence by the Gardai, a legal system that completely favours the criminal and which the legal profession has a vested interest in maintaining, and a total lack of appreciation of the strategic national importance of having an effective defence and security system .
So why should they rock the boat when they can carry on their planning, logistics and radicalistaion here without being troubled and if they are so called refugees , new immigrants they are well looked after.

Nonsense - given that the business model of ISIS encourages muslims in all western countries to carry out freelance attacks with no actual involvement from ISIS members, what's to stop some muslim in Dublin just planning and carrying out an attack?

ISIS would claim it even though they had no direct involvement in it.

I haven't seen any ISIS propaganda that says anything like "attack the US, the UK, France and Germany, but leave Ireland alone". Have you?
 

Lagertha

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Nonsense - given that the business model of ISIS encourages muslims in all western countries to carry out freelance attacks with no actual involvement from ISIS members, what's to stop some muslim in Dublin just planning and carrying out an attack?

ISIS would claim it even though they had no direct involvement in it.

I haven't seen any ISIS propaganda that says anything like "attack the US, the UK, France and Germany, but leave Ireland alone". Have you?
Why would ISIS rock the boat and risk exposing their operatives in Ireland? The American security services warned the Irish government about it's concerns regarding extremism at Clonskeagh mosque but the government totally ignored it and both the government and the media always turn to Clonskeagh for comment on anything Islam in Ireland. The government and the media go out of their way to hide what's going on at Clonskeagh, they film in a way that hides the segregation of male and females at events at Clonskeagh, they film in a way that makes it look like women are treated as equals in Clonskeagh mosque, they never mention that moderate Muslims visiting Dublin avoid Clonskeagh mosque because it's reputation abroad is as a Muslim Brotherhood mosque.
 

Beachcomber

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Why would ISIS rock the boat and risk exposing their operatives in Ireland? The American security services warned the Irish government about it's concerns regarding extremism at Clonskeagh mosque but the government totally ignored it and both the government and the media always turn to Clonskeagh for comment on anything Islam in Ireland. The government and the media go out of their way to hide what's going on at Clonskeagh, they film in a way that hides the segregation of male and females at events at Clonskeagh, they film in a way that makes it look like women are treated as equals in Clonskeagh mosque, they never mention that moderate Muslims visiting Dublin avoid Clonskeagh mosque because it's reputation abroad is as a Muslim Brotherhood mosque.


Try reading what I said.

The business model of ISIS encourages muslims in all western countries to carry out freelance attacks with no actual involvement from ISIS members, what's to stop some muslim in Dublin just planning and carrying out an attack on their own?

ISIS would never have heard of the person before the attack, and could do nothing to control the person before the attack.
 

madmullah

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So you'd have no problem with the government revoking your citizenship?
I did not join the foreign army so I did not take any oath, i was purely commercial, professional. Yep If I joined , but I am too old now so the issue is academic for me..
 

Ardillaun

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Any Irish citizen who freely joins a foreigh army should have his citizenship revoked. It does not matter whether it is the British, US, French, ISIS, Boko Haram etc it should be revoked. I say this as someone who for a period in my early twenties after my time in the DF participated in a foreign war which I now regret.
Joining foreign armies will usually involve swearing an oath of allegience to another state that may result ina situarion where you may be required to undertake operations to undermine the state of which you are a citizen.
Sounds a bit drastic and illustrates again the problem of ‘revocation creep’ - once you start taking passports it’s hard to stop. Given the state of our armed forces, I could understand any ambitious young person’s reasons for joining a more serious outfit defending the West.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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There is no such thing as an Irish passport anymore.


It is an EU passport.

And Soros and 'Ze Germans' love a bit of imported Jihad to keep the serfs on their toes.
 
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