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Irish civil servants now paid double Northern Ireland's (and UK's) civil servants


patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
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13,693
See the wages figures at Civil Service statistics and Table: Employment and Earnings in Public Sector by Type of Public Sector Employment, Quarter and Statistic

At present exchange rates with the £ hovering around one euro,Irish civil service pay is roughly double the UK's. Maybe we should just contract out the civil service functions to the UK and NI ! But it's possible our civil servants are twice as productive as the UK's!

Quote from links above:
-Median gross annual earnings (excluding overtime or one-off
bonuses) for permanent full-time employees were £22,520

-2008Q2
Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings (Euro)
Civil Service 889.82

Latter is €46,270 a year,while £22,520 @ exchange rate of €1.09 equals €24,547.

The median and the average are roughly comparable as long as the distribution of earnings around the median doesn't vary dramatically between the two countries.
 
Last edited:

X-ray

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the same must be true of tesco workers also
 

NeilW

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The median and the average are roughly comparable as long as the distribution of earnings around the median doesn't vary dramatically between the two countries.
No, you dont understand basic statistics. The distribution around the median (or mean) could be identical between the two countries and there could still be a difference between the median and mean. I suspect both distributions are skewed and in both cases the mean will be higher than the median.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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See the wages figures at Civil Service statistics and Table: Employment and Earnings in Public Sector by Type of Public Sector Employment, Quarter and Statistic

At present exchange rates with the £ hovering around one euro,Irish civil service pay is roughly double the UK's. Maybe we should just contract out the civil service functions to the UK and NI ! But it's possible our civil servants are twice as productive as the UK's!
..
I imagine it would certainly be cheaper and more efficient to administer the HSE from India
 

Akrasia

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..
I imagine it would certainly be cheaper and more efficient to administer the HSE from India
Have you ever had to deal with an outsourced Indian customer service department?

Efficiency doesn't describe it, cheap does.
 

politicaldonations

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Sep 28, 2006
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With the unions call ing "equity" and "fairness" surely they couldnt object to the unfair premium in Ps jobs being removed? Or being benchmarked against UK (with adjustment for different cost of living) would be "Fair"?
 

hammer

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58,514
Why are all these reports coming out now I wonder.

The agenda is to slash PS wages & slash PS jobs.

BIFFO is trying to remain popular with the PS by saying the money can be found through efficiency.

He is a cabbage if he thinks this will do it.

Again I remind people that even after the cuts the deficit is €20 billion or the entire cost of the PS.
If we sacked all those in the PS and cancelled all pensions we wouldn`t even eliminate the deficit due to loss of taxation & welfare payments that would need to be made.

We are fooling ourselves.

You need to re-ignite the private sector to generate the taxes that will pay the public service
 

ang

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May 4, 2009
Messages
156
With the unions call ing "equity" and "fairness" surely they couldnt object to the unfair premium in Ps jobs being removed? Or being benchmarked against UK (with adjustment for different cost of living) would be "Fair"?
According to Peter McLoone, if unions are to come up with an alternative, then everyone would have to contribute.


Government looking to pay cuts, pensions and reform for savings - The Irish Times - Mon, Oct 26, 2009

Nice to know Peter wants fairness for all of us. Maybe he will take the UK figures on board.
 

irish_bob

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consulting with unions on what economic measures to take is like consulting a smack addict on what kind of detox programe to set up
 
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History Student

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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
194
You cannot measure pay in UK or Northern Ireland against Civil Service here, there is no comparison and
how many are employed in the CS. The Unions are doing a great job in fighting for their members rights and seem now to have swayed FF
 
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You cannot measure pay in UK or Northern Ireland against Civil Service here, there is no comparison and
how many are employed in the CS. The Unions are doing a great job in fighting for their members rights and seem now to have swayed FF
What do you mean? I see no reason why you cannot measure/compare pay in the UK [incl NI] with pay here. You must of course allow for the more effective health service and the better equiped and organised education system in the UK against their 3rd level fees [excluding Scotland] and lower VAT. But none of this explains why we are so much higher in pay costs from Braian Cowen and all the boys and girls in Leinster House through to all their helpers in the CS. So we should compare and measure if we are to understand where we are heading.
 

j26

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Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
715
See the wages figures at Civil Service statistics and Table: Employment and Earnings in Public Sector by Type of Public Sector Employment, Quarter and Statistic

At present exchange rates with the £ hovering around one euro,Irish civil service pay is roughly double the UK's. Maybe we should just contract out the civil service functions to the UK and NI ! But it's possible our civil servants are twice as productive as the UK's!

Quote from links above:
-Median gross annual earnings (excluding overtime or one-off
bonuses) for permanent full-time employees were £22,520

-2008Q2
Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings (Euro)
Civil Service 889.82

Latter is €46,270 a year,while £22,520 @ exchange rate of €1.09 equals €24,547.

The median and the average are roughly comparable as long as the distribution of earnings around the median doesn't vary dramatically between the two countries.
Some seriously poor maths going on here.

First off, you are comparing NI pay excluding overtime and allowances with ROI weekly earnings, which will include allowances overtime etc. If you strip out Garda & Prison Officers overtime and allowances, and teachers allowances, and all the other various allowances that are paid, the difference would be much less.

Secondly, you are comparing the median (NI) with the mean (ROI). In almost any income distribution the mean will be higher than the median, possibly substantially. The mean is skewed upwards by a relatively small number of very high earners.


Thirdly, The exchange rate you chose, while it is the current exchange rate is historically an aberration. Take a look at the chart here and you will see that up to 2 years ago, the exchange rate was almost under 70p, and it is only in the last year that it has gone over 80p. I don't know if you are trying to blame the PS for exchange rate movements, but if you apply your logic, then your earnings should be cut too as they have risen 20% compared to the UK in the past 2 years.
 
Last edited:

patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
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13,693
No, you dont understand basic statistics. The distribution around the median (or mean) could be identical between the two countries and there could still be a difference between the median and mean. I suspect both distributions are skewed and in both cases the mean will be higher than the median.
Wage differences are far less skewed in the public sector than in the private sector,so the difference between median and mean in the public sector is far less than in the private sector. The CSO doesn't supply
the median,a strange omission for a statistical agency.
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
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13,693
..
I imagine it would certainly be cheaper and more efficient to administer the HSE from India
Language difficulties could be a problem. An English woman told a call centre Indian woman that she had lost her husband,only to be told to look harder for him!
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Why are all these reports coming out now I wonder.

The agenda is to slash PS wages & slash PS jobs.

BIFFO is trying to remain popular with the PS by saying the money can be found through efficiency.

He is a cabbage if he thinks this will do it.

Again I remind people that even after the cuts the deficit is €20 billion or the entire cost of the PS.
If we sacked all those in the PS and cancelled all pensions we wouldn`t even eliminate the deficit due to loss of taxation & welfare payments that would need to be made.

We are fooling ourselves.

You need to re-ignite the private sector to generate the taxes that will pay the public service
Politicians who aren't serious about cutting spending always talk about efficiencies. Trade unions use attempts to introduce efficiencies as a bargaining tool for higher wages if they are prepared to discuss the issue at all. The result is that efficiencies are illusory most of the time.
 

wexfordman

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Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
7,877
Language difficulties could be a problem. An English woman told a call centre Indian woman that she had lost her husband,only to be told to look harder for him!
Ha, and then they ended the call with "Thankyou for calling the HSE helpline, you have a GREAT DAY:D "

And followed it up two days later with a questionaire on how their contact centre resolved thier issue
 

dotski_w_

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Oct 28, 2004
Messages
2,485
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irishpollingreport.wordpress.com
Wage differences are far less skewed in the public sector .
Should they be more skewed, then? Or have you worked out what you want, beyond less pay for ppl working for the State....?

aside from your gaffe re the overtime issue, mean (as opposed to median) wages are likely to be higher in smaller country Civil services, as in larger countries the number of people simply implementing policy (e.g. COs making payments) will be proportionately lower than those managing the national budget and advising the Minister - it's called economies of scale, no matter whether you've 4 million or 50 million people, you still need someone considering pensions policy and the issues involved don't need 92% less consideration if you're a smaller country.

Not that you listen to voices that come from anywhere outside of your head ....
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Some seriously poor maths going on here.

First off, you are comparing NI pay excluding overtime and allowances with ROI weekly earnings, which will include allowances overtime etc. If you strip out Garda & Prison Officers overtime and allowances, and teachers allowances, and all the other various allowances that are paid, the difference would be much less.

Secondly, you are comparing the median (NI) with the mean (ROI). In almost any income distribution the mean will be higher than the median, possibly substantially. The mean is skewed upwards by a relatively small number of very high earners.


Thirdly, The exchange rate you chose, while it is the current exchange rate is historically an aberration. Take a look at the chart here and you will see that up to 2 years ago, the exchange rate was almost under 70p, and it is only in the last year that it has gone over 80p. I don't know if you are trying to blame the PS for exchange rate movements, but if you apply your logic, then your earnings should be cut too as they have risen 20% compared to the UK in the past 2 years.
The Gardai and prison officer earn overtime but it is a minority of about 14,000 Gardai plus a majority of 4,000 prison guards who earn overtime and I doubt if this could distort the comparison much.

You fail to see the big picture: There is an enormous difference in pay which is probably only partially caused by overtime pay and by the statistical difference between median and mean.
 

dotski_w_

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Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Messages
2,485
Website
irishpollingreport.wordpress.com
The Gardai and prison officer earn overtime but it is a minority of about 14,000 Gardai plus a majority of 4,000 prison guards who earn overtime and I doubt if this could distort the comparison much.

You fail to see the big picture: There is an enormous difference in pay which is probably only partially caused by overtime pay and by the statistical difference between median and mean.
So, Pat, time for you to answer the Q we're all wondering. Which PS entrance exam did you fail exactly?
 
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