Irish Defence Cooperation with an Independent Scotland

ringobrodgar

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I think it is almost inevitable that will happen as we will be doing the same missions the question is will we be able to do greater and more complex missions through that cooperation? Ireland had ambitions to source an amphibious ship but as the cost approached €200 million it became less and less conceivable. Cooperating with Scotland to build such a ship would allow the two countries to self rescue their citizens abroad and the costs would be equally borne. I would imagine our intelligence services definitely would cooperate to take down loyalists who posed a threat.
 


McTell

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I think it is almost inevitable that will happen as we will be doing the same missions the question is will we be able to do greater and more complex missions through that cooperation? Ireland had ambitions to source an amphibious ship but as the cost approached €200 million it became less and less conceivable. //

Whaaat? Get a battery of missiles on shore and blow whatever looks bad out of the water.

Missions, ffs we've had enough of missions. Stay at home, make money, and tell the chinese embassy discreetly that any mullarkey on our servers and huawei is out.
 

ringobrodgar

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Forgive me but your reply sounds isolationist not something I have ever thought the Irish or the Scots were. We engage with others in a perhaps vain attempt to make a better world but we do try.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Always been a bit suspicious of those 'amphibious ships' meself.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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We could have a couple of squadrons of Flight Jets too, while we are at it. Couple of hundred Ground Tanks and some Anti-Pretty-Much-Anything-Missiles and you could have a Fighting War.
 

ringobrodgar

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We could have a couple of squadrons of Flight Jets too, while we are at it. Couple of hundred Ground Tanks and some Anti-Pretty-Much-Anything-Missiles and you could have a Fighting War.
I quite appreciate your skepticism but in Scotland, there has been a sea change in attitudes we no longer look to put up a warfighting force. What is envisioned is an external police force a gendarmerie. I do want to say that the Irish pragmatism and realism is very welcome
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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I quite appreciate your skepticism but in Scotland, there has been a sea change in attitudes we no longer look to put up a warfighting force. What is envisioned is an external police force a gendarmerie. I do want to say that the Irish pragmatism and realism is very welcome
You’re wasting your time trying to have a serious conversation with him about this issue. He thinks we should lease Atlantic naval bases to the Chinese.

Here’s a related thread from the vaults.


SNP Defence Policy

You say that attitudes have changed in Scotland. What’s the current general opinion about an independent Scotland’s membership of NATO or defence cooperation within the EU?

IMO I think Ireland and Scotland could usefully pool their resources for shared capabilities. Perhaps, as you said, for an amphibious/sea lift vessel(our Multi Role Vessel requirement) but also perhaps shared maritime patrol(forgetting the awkward issue of Rockall) and transport aircraft. Beyond those a shared interception capability should also be considered.

I think in the event of an independent Scotland and an United ireland the logic and practicality of defence cooperation between the two would be further strengthened. For example a shared air policing flight covering the west coasts of Ireland and Scotland with a dual basing at a Scottish and Irish airfield would be a more feasible prospect than both trying to do so separately.

Currently Ireland is part of the EU Nordic Battle Group. Not a very logical position in geographic terms but it allows us to cooperate on an equal basis with roughly similar sized(in terms of population and wealth) rather than be dominated in by say the UK or France. Perhaps Scotland might also become ‘Nordic’?
 

Dame_Enda

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I think the SNP policy in 2014 was that Scotland would be a NATO member. Ireland is not a NATO member. Of course that doesnt mean Ireland cant cooperate with them as part of cooperation with NATO.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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We could keep a look-out for them and if some big boys come along and try nefarious invasion methods such as catching public transport in small groups at the borders to fool NATO intelligence services who were busy looking for tank tracks, divisional movements then we could shout out.

'Hey!' we could shout. 'We know tourists and those are no tourists over there'.
 

ringobrodgar

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You’re wasting your time trying to have a serious conversation with him about this issue. He thinks we should lease Atlantic naval bases to the Chinese.

Here’s a related thread from the vaults.


SNP Defence Policy

You say that attitudes have changed in Scotland. What’s the current general opinion about an independent Scotland’s membership of NATO or defence cooperation within the EU?

IMO I think Ireland and Scotland could usefully pool their resources for shared capabilities. Perhaps, as you said, for an amphibious/sea lift vessel(our Multi Role Vessel requirement) but also perhaps shared maritime patrol(forgetting the awkward issue of Rockall) and transport aircraft. Beyond those a shared interception capability should also be considered.

I think in the event of an independent Scotland and an United ireland the logic and practicality of defence cooperation between the two would be further strengthened. For example a shared air policing flight covering the west coasts of Ireland and Scotland with a dual basing at a Scottish and Irish airfield would be a more feasible prospect than both trying to do so separately.

Currently Ireland is part of the EU Nordic Battle Group. Not a very logical position in geographic terms but it allows us to cooperate on an equal basis with roughly similar sized(in terms of population and wealth) rather than be dominated in by say the UK or France. Perhaps Scotland might also become ‘Nordic’?
Excellent post just the material I was looking for. Nordic makes far more sense for us. European defence cooperation is a given cant imagine we wouldn't be doing that NATO the current Scots gov position is to embrace NATO.

The two countries have a combined GDP of nearly $600 billion and a population approaching 10 million,more so if its a united Ireland, so it would be possible to dream of defence capabilities of larger states than ourselves than alone as you say.

The key change in Scottish thinking is to start with a clean slate not take any legacy UK equipment. The core mission for both states is to be able to deploy a battalion abroad for a minimum 6 month period something both of us can do right now the 51st brigade based in Stirling does this routinely.

The two countries dont need a warfighting force in terms of air or sea they need an external police force a gendarmerie that can be achieved by pooling and sharing resources to create a coastguard that can do all the missions of drug interdiction maritime patrol etc. Above all though it has to be sustainable so that in time of recession we can still afford it. Once again thank you for your excellent reply
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
That definitely makes more sense ringobrodgar. You'll have to excuse my scepticism on matters of defence budget and our island. We are one of the few people around who aren't in NATO and do not have nuclear weapons to maintain and update so we are unlikely to feature on many big nuclear screens in Moscow, the US, or China.

I'm also quite used to seeing Tom Clancy readers here and there giving it the spartan from their Laz-E-Boy chairs suggesting we missile up and buy all sorts of billion dollar jets and what have you. Military enthusiasts with weird unbudgeted dreams and Boogaloo instinct levels. None of them strategic thinkers.

I recall the Swiss government had a bolthole down in West Cork set aside in the 70s if the Russians started knocking on their back door and the government had to go into exile. The reason they chose West Cork is because statistically and depending on weather conditions a nuclear exchange on the European continent between France/Germany and Russia at battlefield nuke level would still make West Cork one of the safest places to be in Europe. A global conflict with nukes and it is game over everywhere anyway.

The small but sharp coastguard thing is a good idea suitable for budget. Missiles, not so much of a return on investment given how many we could afford.

My suggestion around Shannon Estuary and giving the Chinese or the Russians or both a major base there was suggested as a great way to start earning money from something we've been just giving the Americans for free for many years.

I'd rather if we are going to be used by a superpower that we find a way to at least get rent out of it. I see no reason to have an approved tenant list of one. That's bad business. Worth remembering as well that when we needed some financial daylight in 2007 with a seized up economy it wasn't the Chinese or the Russians who said 'no' to a haircut to bondholders. It was Tim Geithner, US Treasury Secretary, speaking on behalf of Angela's Bundesbank.

Perhaps most controversially I'd suggest that there is plenty of evidence that there is a resiling of US military forces around the globe generally, on a recall home primarily because of desperate levels of government debt and economic travails along with other troublesome domestic issues. Russia is a very different creature now than it was under the Soviet era. It is run like a free market dream and the only thing between the oligarchs/criminal networks and rule in Russia is the disturbing thought that Putin would lace their tea fairly fast if he thought they were getting out of hand. But the Russians are a completely different ballgame now on the intel and online war and looking very adept at it.

The Chinese won't be contained much longer and are definitely looking outwards and won't miss the retrenchment opportunities the US is leaving behind. They are already at it with the New Silk Roads.

Who do you want to be polite to? Yesterday or tomorrow?
 
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ringobrodgar

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Forgive me but your Russia China base idea was presumably predicated on Ireland alone. We have now seen a skein of polls 2 at 54% in a row for Scottish independence. That we would not cooperate in defence matters is nearly inconceivable. The two countries need to avoid getting involved in global geopolitics
and concentrate on their core mission. While we would not in actuality be neutral we should try at every juncture to maintain the impression that that is our wish.

The previous reliance on England for defence in years to come will simply become non-tenable Brexit will see their economy contract and their defence capabilities decline significantly.

To put it into perspective the two countries would have a fleet of 16 offshore patrol vessels LÉ Samuel Beckett (P61) - Wikipedia for less than 40 million a year each we could patrol our own airspace. As Scotland has discovered if you dont control your own destiny someone else will and you may not like that destiny.

I would further argue that Scottish independence should become a long term foreign policy goal for the Republic of Ireland as its simply in its best defence interest.
 


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