Irish government is setting up fund to manage Apple billions

mr_anderson

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The Irish government is setting up a fund to manage the estimated 13 billion euros ($15.2 billion) it will collect from Apple Inc. in back taxes, nearly a year after the European Commission ruled the country had provided a sweetheart deal on tax to the U.S. firm.


The government and Apple will jointly appoint a custodian to hold the money to be deposited by the iPhone maker, the finance ministry said in an emailed statement. The funds will be held in escrow pending appeals by Apple and Ireland, which could take years. One or more investment managers will also be hired to manage the money.
...
The EU’s Competition Commission ruled last August that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on corporation tax breaking state-aid rules. That meant Apple would have to pay as much as 13 billion euros in back taxes.


Ireland was supposed to have collected the funds by January. Irish officials are working intensively to comply with its recovery obligations “as soon as possible, and remain in regular contact with the European Commission and Apple on all aspects of this process,” the ministry said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-22/ireland-seeks-custodian-for-apple-cash-as-collection-nears


I've no problem with setting up a fund for this money.
But what's to stop it being just another slush fund for a politician to dip their greasy fingers into whenever they find it politically expedient to do so ?

The National Pension Reserve Fund (NPRF) was raped by FF when the consequences of their actions finally bore fruit and collapsed the economy.

Taxpayers paid a levy into the fund (NPRF) which was established to allow the State build up a war chest of funds. This was to deal with the greatly increased demand for pensions that is anticipated in mid-century as the population grows older.


The NPRF’s asset base had increased to over €22 billion in 2009. However, following the economic and banking collapse, its assets have been diverted as successive governments raided it to fund programmes or help meet the State’s fiscal commitments during the crisis.

The €7 billion remaining in the fund has been earmarked for the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund since December 2014. That fund will invest in large capital and commercial projects which will be of strategic benefit.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/national-pension-reserve-fund-should-now-be-revived-says-brian-hayes-1.2119297


How is it possible to prevent this fund being picked clean by politicians fearful about losing their seats ?
 


sic transit

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sic transit

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Yes.
But I'm talking about when (or if ?) it comes out of escrow and into government hands.
National debt reduction unless FF or like-minded populists have an election to win! Even if they don't win the appeal it is likely some deal will have been done with the US government by Apple which will make the fund defunct.
 

PO'Neill

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" Irish officials are working intensively to comply with its recovery obligations " Says it all about the wee gombeen joke of a state. Jayus did you ever hear of a person who was forced to accept a pay out by the courts, fu*king hell :roll: Doubtless we'll be told by the Irish Times that it's another sign of our "maturity" :roll:
 

robut

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The funds will be held in escrow pending appeals by Apple and Ireland, which could take years. One or more investment managers will also be hired to manage the money.
Just a question or two ...

1. Are APPLE actually putting €13bn into this account shortly? And there it will reside awaiting one of two outcomes - Apple gets it back or Ireland plc gets it?

2. If 1 is the case are there any costs to us, the Irish taxpayer like management fees, interest to be paid while sitting there etc?

Sorry for my misunderstandings ..
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Those are good questions. And would the proposed investment managers have any connection with NAMA might be another one.
 

Barroso

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Yes.
But I'm talking about when (or if ?) it comes out of escrow and into government hands.
Don't you worry, that money will be borrowed against, and will be spent by FG in their re-election campaign long before we officially get our hands on it.
 

publicrealm

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Why not let Apple manage the fund - couldn't do much worse than my pension fund which is 'actively managed' (with what's left being raided by Mr Noonan)?

It might even grow in value - if Apple managed it.
 

venusian

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Just a question or two ...

1. Are APPLE actually putting €13bn into this account shortly? And there it will reside awaiting one of two outcomes - Apple gets it back or Ireland plc gets it?

2. If 1 is the case are there any costs to us, the Irish taxpayer like management fees, interest to be paid while sitting there etc?

Sorry for my misunderstandings ..
I am sure the enemy of the state FG'ers will set up a scenario whereby the escrow account will not be tax liable exactly in the same way that they set up REITs' where millions are made by FG Noonan's Vulture fund bankster mates and virtually zero tax is paid on any profits
Stephen Donnelly: Tax avoidance anomaly means pain for taxpayers - Independent.ie
In recent weeks, I've been looking into entirely lawful 'tax neutral' schemes being used by so-called vulture funds in Ireland. And I fear a legitimate law could inadvertently lead to one of the biggest avoidance of Irish taxes in the State's history.
We could be looking at total lost taxes in the region of €20bn over 10 years.
At this point, two things are required. First, if I'm right, ways must be found to stop any further avoidance on Irish taxes by these funds.
Second, a formal investigation must be launched to ascertain how this was allowed to happen in the first place.

Once again highlighting scum FG and their tax dodging schemes for the wealthy

Vulture funds using charitable status for tax avoidance being investigated
Vulture funds using charitable status for tax avoidance being investigated

Some vulture funds are using a tax loophole to pay as little as €250 in tax in Ireland.
 

Sister Mercedes

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Wave a dollar bill through a trailer park and watch what it attracts. Wave €13 billion through the Irish Establishment and watch the parasites it will attract.

We'll just about have enough left to buy an iPhone and a second hand Mac.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I can't see Apple simply handing over 13 billion into an escrow account somehow and waiting a few years to see what'll happen with various legal maneouverings.

There's something about smelly about this announcement already.
 

robut

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I can't see Apple simply handing over 13 billion into an escrow account somehow and waiting a few years to see what'll happen with various legal maneouverings.

There's something about smelly about this announcement already.
That was one of my Qs previous page. Where is this €13bn coming from that will rest in that escrow account? It cannot be coming from us the taxpayer can it? I mean apparently we just dont have it ..
 

robut

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https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0722/892181-apple-recovery/

The National Treasury Management Agency has been appointed to procure an escrow agent to administer the fund WHICH WILL contain funds recovered from Apple following last year's European Commission ruling on state aid.
I highlighted and made bold the part I have a Q about.

Its saying IT WILL contain funds recovered from APPLE. This seems to imply that Apple will be handing over €13bn to be added to this account and held in escrow until AFTER the cases around it are sorted which might take years.

This sounds odd to me??
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
'funds recovered from Apple following last year's European Commission ruling'....

I think if Apple had paid over 13 billion we'd have heard about it. I doubt they have and it would be a remarkable departure if a commercial concern simply parked 13 billion and even more remarkable if a commercial organisation simply shrugged and allowed the Irish Government to manage it and report back on how things were going every year or so.

There is something implausible about this story. I suspect it will be some nominal amount set up to 'show goodwill' agreed between Apple and the Dept of Finance which gives the impression Apple have parked billions with NTMA and which won't actually be the case.

There'll be some kind of 'Sisters of Charity' sleight of hand involved- as with the weekend PR announcement pulled together by some spin-doctors that time trying to portray the redress bill had been paid by that organisation when in fact no such payment had taken place.

The Irish government has form over many years in this area of assisting connected organisations to pull the wool over Paddy's eyes with carefully worded misunderestimations.
 

gerhard dengler

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The tax liability is due payable.

The question is who the liability is due payable to?

American tax authorities could claim that part of the liability is due payable to them.
I'm sure other tax jurisdictions will claim that where the Apple sales were made, some of that tax liability will be due payable to them too.

Irish Collector General is tasked to collect the tax liability due from Apple, pending an appeal of the European decision by Apple. But where the liability will ultimately paid to, remains to be seen.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
According to their latest balance sheet, Apple has Cash & Cash Equivalents totalling $20 billion.

Apple Inc. (AAPL) Balance Sheet - NASDAQ.com
Mm. I think the sudden disappearance of 13 billion euro from that figure would have caused comment in the financial media. The movement of some 13 billion should really make ripples in the pond and I see no ripples around cashflow at Apple which suggests this sort of money has left home and run away to join the suggested Irish circus.

So someone somewhere is bullsh1tting.
 

Analyzer

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Prediction - the insitutional state will blow the money on themselves.

We should be using this money to reduce our out of control public debts.
 

sic transit

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https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0722/892181-apple-recovery/



I highlighted and made bold the part I have a Q about.

Its saying IT WILL contain funds recovered from APPLE. This seems to imply that Apple will be handing over €13bn to be added to this account and held in escrow until AFTER the cases around it are sorted which might take years.

This sounds odd to me??
No, that's the current plan. Revenue have accepted it is a tax liability pending the appeal and the NTMA will "mind it".
 


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