Irish language 10% extra in the leaving cert - is it legal ?

mr_anderson

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As we all know, if you do the leaving cert through Irish, you are entitled to an extra 10%.

Without getting into a pro or anti Irish language thread (we have more than enough of those), I am wondering would this stand up to a legal challange ?
In my own eyes it would appear to be blatant discrimination as you dont get extra for doing it through any other language.
 


blucey

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mr_anderson said:
As we all know, if you do the leaving cert through Irish, you are entitled to an extra 10%.

Without getting into a pro or anti Irish language thread (we have more than enough of those), I am wondering would this stand up to a legal challange ?
In my own eyes it would appear to be blatant discrimination as you dont get extra for doing it through any other language.
Its actually worse than that. Here is the regulation from the State Exam Commission
Bonus marks at the rate of 10 per cent of the marks obtained will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Technology, Typewriting, Russian, Japanese.

Bonus marks at the rate of 3 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the subject Art, Craft, Design (Junior Certificate).

Above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.

No bonus will be given in the case of the following subjects:- Technical Graphics, Technical Drawing, Leaving Certificate Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).
Now....Why is Math and EU languages at 5% and Hebrew 10%... Is there any logic to this at all?
 

DJP

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Note: it's 10% of the base mark.

I think that eventually they will have to get rid of this law.

However, currently there are not even books in Irish available in some subjects at second level so students doing their exams through Irish are at a disadvantage. This merits the marks.
 

lap yapmi

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The state is quite entitled to take reasonable measures such as this to encourage an ancient language that is now at death's door.

If it were some wild flower or marsh snail that were in danger of extinction our Irish liberals would be in full cry, or even if it were the language of some tribal group in Amazonia or New Guinea.

But since it's "only" their own ancestral language the Irish liberals start baying about fairness and justice!

Give our children access to millions of internet sites in Irish, a choice of countless textbooks in Irish, educational TV programs in Irish, then you can in "fairness" take away the bonus.
 

returning officer

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who exactly would be in a position to challenge this measure?
 

evercloserunion

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The qualification of the quality guarantee in the Constitution, which says that the State may differentiate between different classes based on their social capacity and function, gives the State wide-ranging powers to discriminate and it is unlikely that a challenge to this law would succeed on equality grounds.

I'm not particularly bothered by it, though I suppose that's because I got more than enough points for my number one college course choice. And I know that I earned those points, I got them by working hard and doing well and not for speaking a dead language and getting sympathy hand-outs from the government.
 

Corcaigh33

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mr_anderson said:
As we all know, if you do the leaving cert through Irish, you are entitled to an extra 10%.

Without getting into a pro or anti Irish language thread (we have more than enough of those), I am wondering would this stand up to a legal challange ?
In my own eyes it would appear to be blatant discrimination as you dont get extra for doing it through any other language.
How can this be anything other than an anti Irish language thread????

There is nothing discriminatory about it - it's an encouragement to take up our national first language.
I studied History and Geography through Irish for my Inter Cert. I got 10% of the mark I achieved added
on to get my final mark. I have posted extensively as to how I think Irish should be thought in schools so
that everyone leaving secondary education would be able to actually speak it.

What is this obsession with any expression of our national culture and our first language that any promotion
of it needs to be shot down?? And that is what this thread is - an anti Irish language thread.

No one is discriminated against with this.
 

Cúchonnacht

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I'm willing to make a deal. I think its fair to scrap the 10% bonus if publishers must print an identical Irish translation, at the same retail price, of all secondary school books they print.
That way those who do it through Irish aren't discriminated against by the publishers, and the bonus ends.
Thats a fair deal I'd say.
Will anyone listen!
 

blucey

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returning officer said:
who exactly would be in a position to challenge this measure?
Someone denied a university place, where the cutoff for points was X , X arising from there being a bunch of bonus point students applying for the course, where if the bonus points didnt exist it would be X-whatever, the complainant then being in a position to be offered a place. After all, Both E and G are official languages
 

mairteenpak

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It is a gross discrimination against Irish Citizens who are not fluent in the Irish Language. It debases academic achievement, particularly of people who are proficient in Irish. It is right and proper that there is a facility to take examinations through the medium of Irish.

With the availability of Internet the Department of Education might better ensure that appropriate course material is available to students through the medium of Irish.

Leaving Certificates which have benefited from the fraud of bonus marks should identify the percentage of the bonus mark for each subject, as well as the pre bonus mark. This would facilitate academic transparency and fairness.

Irish Citizens should enjoy the same right and opportunities and be valued by our society regardless of their religion, or lack of it, their race, sexuality, gender, ethnicity grouping, etc.

The practice of awarding bonus marks, is clearly an effort to significantly advantage a particular group, and it is not possible to give an advantage to one group of students without setting another group at a disadvantage amounting to discrimination.

The state already provides a requirement on students to learn Irish, as Irish is, as I understand matters, necessary to gain access to Irish Universities, even though a facility with such language would not be of any benefit, in studying many degree courses, save for Law and the language itself. This provision is a very substantial influence in the compulsion of learning the Irish language.

There are two parties to the fraud of bonus marks for taking examinations through the medium of Irish the Department of Education and the Students who avail of the bonus marks. Though under the current system students have no option out of the bonus mark scheme should they have scruples and still wish to take their exams through the medium of Irish.

Ethical Students must be provided with as an interim measure a method of opting out of the Bonus mark scheme, while taking exams through the medium of Irish, such that their integrity not be undermined.

The first step in fighting the fraud is to make a complaint to the equality authority under the equality act.

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im
 

returning officer

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Under which ground?
Nationality is the only one that comes clear. Some people have bizarre notions of what equality means in law - it does not mean equality for all.

As for who could sue - why has no such person (one denied a space in college who but for 10% to their base mark would have got the points) ever come forward. And as a matter of evidence, how would they prove that the person who did their examine in Irish (the comparator) would not have achieved a higher grade it they had done it in English? This is a fascinating theortical discussion.
 

mairteenpak

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What an Irish medium candidate might have got through the medium of English is irrelevant.

It must be assumed that a candidate took the exam through the medium of their choice.


What everyone must realise is that If their child misses a third level place by a narrow margin the likelihood is that if they are an English medium candidate, that they have been discriminated against and they must hold Fianna Fail Accountable at the Ballot box in the next election and every subsequent election.
 

returning officer

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mairteenpak said:
What an Irish medium candidate might have got through the medium of English is irrelevant.

It must be assumed that a candidate took the exam through the medium of their choice.


What everyone must realise is that If their child misses a third level place by a narrow margin the likelihood is that if they are an English medium candidate, that they have been discriminated against and they must hold Fianna Fail Accountable at the Ballot box in the next election and every subsequent election.
They do, that's over 50% of first preference and effective transfers go to Fianna Fail candidates.
As for concerned parents, perhaps if they had taken the decision, where available, to send their children to a gealscoil, not alone would they have received a higher quality education without paying fees, they would also have have recieved an advantage in the points race.
But since people here are talking about a legal case, you need 3 things, a willing plaintiff, a legal ground and the evidence to support it - those who argue for a challenge here, appear to lack all 3. Therefore, to answer the thread question, yes it is legal.
 
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Think how hard it is to do a subject through Irish. I did Maths in Irish in Primary School and in Secondary School we had English Text Books gor over ten of the Sublects we were doing through Irish meaning I had to translate everything I read ( exept English Class ) from English into Irish before I understood it so I'd have to say it's pretty fair. Gaeilge is our PRIMARY National Language so why shouldn't you get a extra 10% for using it in an exam. I didn't do them because I got an extra 10%, I didn't even know you got it untill 5th Year. If we all spoke Irish all the time then it would be a different story.
 

blucey

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General Eagle Eye said:
Think how hard it is to do a subject through Irish. I did Maths in Irish in Primary School and in Secondary School we had English Text Books gor over ten of the Sublects we were doing through Irish meaning I had to translate everything I read ( exept English Class ) from English into Irish before I understood it so I'd have to say it's pretty fair. Gaeilge is our PRIMARY National Language so why shouldn't you get a extra 10% for using it in an exam. I didn't do them because I got an extra 10%, I didn't even know you got it untill 5th Year. If we all spoke Irish all the time then it would be a different story.
Boohoo. By that argument were we to do exams in latin we should get 100% extra. Or people whose native and home language is not english should get extra marks (thatd be popular).
Why should people whose language isnt Irish get extra marks for doing Irish (would have to translate all the material into english before they understood it). No, this is a bad idea...
 

siostalóir

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Perhaps there should also be a discussion into the advantages offerdd to students with dispensations due to say dyslexia. Many of these students get the advantage of not being marked down for poor grammar and spelling. But of course you only get the advantage if you are priveleged enough to be in a school that identifies your learning needs, or have parents who can get the right educational psychologist to do a strong case up for you.

So at least the bonus for irsh medium candidates is fair in that everybody entitled to it gets it.
But the advantage offered to kids with learning difficulties only go to a few lucky ones and not to everybody who should get it.

Here is an alternative to the bonus for irish medium .. mark irish medium exam candidates as normal but deduct 10% from anyone who answers in english .. worth discussing!
 
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BodyofEvidence said:
mr_anderson said:
As we all know, if you do the leaving cert through Irish, you are entitled to an extra 10%.

Without getting into a pro or anti Irish language thread (we have more than enough of those), I am wondering would this stand up to a legal challange ?
In my own eyes it would appear to be blatant discrimination as you dont get extra for doing it through any other language.
Its actually worse than that. Here is the regulation from the State Exam Commission
Bonus marks at the rate of 10 per cent of the marks obtained will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Technology, Typewriting, Russian, Japanese.

Bonus marks at the rate of 3 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the subject Art, Craft, Design (Junior Certificate).

Above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.

No bonus will be given in the case of the following subjects:- Technical Graphics, Technical Drawing, Leaving Certificate Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).
Now....Why is Math and EU languages at 5% and Hebrew 10%... Is there any logic to this at all?
Singling out hebrew studies, surprise, surprise- well it's a zionist conspiracy to take over Ireland :roll: .
 


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