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Irish language-zones - an idea



Degeneration X

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I know. But it isn’t obvious that the language would have died without the Acts - altjough they obviously helped.
Welsh was helped by the fact that Wales is largely Protestant - meaning Bibles were translated in the vernacular after the Reformation and stimulated learning and literacy in that language. Irish was largely spoken by Catholics whose Bibles were in Latin.
 

Cai

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Welsh was helped by the fact that Wales is largely Protestant - meaning Bibles were translated in the vernacular after the Reformation and stimulated learning and literacy in that language. Irish was largely spoken by Catholics whose Bibles were in Latin.
Well what it did was to create standard written Welsh - which has been a unifying force in Welsh speaking Wales.
 

DJP

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The recession era cuts have hit Irish Language Media hard.
That news report on the RTÉ website didn't mention that a recommendation of the committee's report launched today is that there should be a national Irish language radio station for young people. And Raidió na Life said in a statement today that they are prepared to develop RnaL into a national station if they get enough funding to be able to do so. Great news, I hope- IF the development happens.
 

Breanainn

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That news report on the RTÉ website didn't mention that a recommendation of the committee's report launched today is that there should be a national Irish language radio station for young people. And Raidió na Life said in a statement today that they are prepared to develop RnaL into a national station if they get enough funding to be able to do so. Great news, I hope- IF the development happens.
As the Tuairisc article pointed out, Raidío Rí-Rá fills the "young people's station" function online, so wouldn't cost much to give them an FM licence.
 

DJP

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As the Tuairisc article pointed out, Raidío Rí-Rá fills the "young people's station" function online, so wouldn't cost much to give them an FM licence.
RnaL are a lot more developed. RRR are only on the internet and I assume aren't anyway near as developed as RnaL. And RRR are a chart music station so that rules out a lot of potential listeners whereas RnaL if they were a national station would have a lot more of a mix and would appeal to more people.
 

Barroso

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RnaL are a lot more developed. RRR are only on the internet and I assume aren't anyway near as developed as RnaL. And RRR are a chart music station so that rules out a lot of potential listeners whereas RnaL if they were a national station would have a lot more of a mix and would appeal to more people.
Is Raidió na Life directed at the young? if so, I wasn't aware of that.
I'd prefer to leave Dublin with a local radio station in Irish, and have a separate national radio broadcasting to and for the young.
I'd also like to see local Irish-language radio stations in other parts of the country - say Cork, Thomond, the SE, the Midlands etc.
 

DJP

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Is Raidió na Life directed at the young? if so, I wasn't aware of that.
I'd prefer to leave Dublin with a local radio station in Irish, and have a separate national radio broadcasting to and for the young.
I'd also like to see local Irish-language radio stations in other parts of the country - say Cork, Thomond, the SE, the Midlands etc.
The vast majority of the volunteers and all of the staff are young/ish- predominately 20's and 30's.
 

Barroso

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The vast majority of the volunteers and all of the staff are young/ish- predominately 20's and 30's.
Well, volunteers tend to be young; but as I said I'd prefer a properly-funded station with broadcasting standards, and a style guide including quality of language.
For instance I heard a Radio Ulster broadcast today where the presenter said "Goidé atá sé cosúil leis?" - in other words, he translated directly from English "What is it like". Raidió na Life produces similar gems.I cannot imagine that the quality would suddenly improve if they were properly funded.
There is a place for Raidió na Life, Raidió Fáilte and the Irish language programs on Radio Ulster; but they cannot (and should not) be obliged to enforce strict standards among their program makers.
An officially-funded radio station should have strict standards among its employees, who should be properly trained in all aspects of their job, including the quality of the language they use, regardless of which register of language they are speaking.
 

Cai

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Well, volunteers tend to be young; but as I said I'd prefer a properly-funded station with broadcasting standards, and a style guide including quality of language.
For instance I heard a Radio Ulster broadcast today where the presenter said "Goidé atá sé cosúil leis?" - in other words, he translated directly from English "What is it like". Raidió na Life produces similar gems.I cannot imagine that the quality would suddenly improve if they were properly funded.
There is a place for Raidió na Life, Raidió Fáilte and the Irish language programs on Radio Ulster; but they cannot (and should not) be obliged to enforce strict standards among their program makers.
An officially-funded radio station should have strict standards among its employees, who should be properly trained in all aspects of their job, including the quality of the language they use, regardless of which register of language they are speaking.
I think that it’s important to differentiate between presenters on TV, radio etc & other contributors. If Irish is like Welsh it’s spoken on a colloquial level in a variety of different ways & by people from widely different backgrounds. While they need a model of the oral language it’s important to include & respect them. The future of Irish - like Welsh to a lesser extent - depends on attracting people who are currently not comfortable speaking it.
 

Barroso

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I think that it’s important to differentiate between presenters on TV, radio etc & other contributors. If Irish is like Welsh it’s spoken on a colloquial level in a variety of different ways & by people from widely different backgrounds. While they need a model of the oral language it’s important to include & respect them. The future of Irish - like Welsh to a lesser extent - depends on attracting people who are currently not comfortable speaking it.
I couldn't agree more.
The presenters should be professionally trained, but that does not mean they should talk like a book. Depending on the circumstances, their register of language should be colloquial, but still grammatically correct, with good phonetics etc.
Just because they are broadcasting in colloquial speech to a young audience doesn't mean they should speak a poor quality of language, in fact quite the opposite, as a good presenter can become a linguistic model for their listeners.
Of course those they are interviewing, or who phone in, will speak as they like, and that is good too. But they are not generally going to be the role models for listeners.
 
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Cai

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I couldn't agree more.
The presenters should be professionally trained, but that does not mean they should talk like a book. Depending on the circumstances, their register of language should be colloquial, but still grammatically correct, with good phonetics etc.
Just because they are broadcasting in colloquial speech to a young audience doesn't mean they should speak a poor quality of language, in fact quite the opposite, as a good presenter can become a linguistic model for their listeners.
Of course those they are interviewing, or who phone in, will speak as they like, and that is good too. But they are not generally going to be the role models for listeners.
Another point worth making perhaps is that a linguistic model should be as simple as possible - without compromising the basic structure of the language.

Welsh is more complex than English, & I’m guessing that the same is true of Irish. Welsh is naturally becoming simpler - my children don’t use the full range of mutations that I use for example (although ironically technical terms come more naturally to them - their education was largely through the medium of Welsh while mine was largely through the medium of English).

I reckon that it’s probably better not to resist a simplification process - modern, successful languages tend to be simple & user friendly.
 

Fun with Irish

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Another point worth making perhaps is that a linguistic model should be as simple as possible - without compromising the basic structure of the language.

Welsh is more complex than English, & I’m guessing that the same is true of Irish. Welsh is naturally becoming simpler - my children don’t use the full range of mutations that I use for example (although ironically technical terms come more naturally to them - their education was largely through the medium of Welsh while mine was largely through the medium of English).

I reckon that it’s probably better not to resist a simplification process - modern, successful languages tend to be simple & user friendly.
Why would dumbing-down a language increase the incentive for people to use it? What's the logic here?

If a language is actually needed for use in real-life then must it must allow the user to express the range of meanings in real-life. For example, by being accurate with tenses. Otherwise you just get a 'Cúpla Focal' or pidgin language.

Who would spend twelve years learning Spanish in order to speak pidgin Spanish?
 

Fun with Irish

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I think a lot of us know at least some Irish, but are embarassed to use it in public places because of lingering post-colonial shaming which associated it with poverty and the Famine..............
Also because English is the mother tongue and vernacular of the population, as it is yours. Which they will know. So to press the use of another language in exchanges between you is inconvenient, inefficient and, if pressed, irritating.

So they'll discourage you from doing it and make you feel embarrassed for trying or certainly for persisting.
 

Cai

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Why would dumbing-down a language increase the incentive for people to use it? What's the logic here?

If a language is actually needed for use in real-life then must it must allow the user to express the range of meanings in real-life. For example, by being accurate with tenses. Otherwise you just get a 'Cúpla Focal' or pidgin language.

Who would spend twelve years learning Spanish in order to speak pidgin Spanish?
If I say that in Welsh ‘In Garndolbenmaen’ I’d say ‘yng Ngarndolbenmaen’. My children wouldn't mutate the G to Ng. There’s no dumbing down there - it’s just simplifying the pronunciation of the word. My parents would say ‘gwerthadant’ for ‘They would sell’. I’d tend to use the longer but simpler ‘Byddant yn gwerthu’. Again it doesn’t simplify what’s said, it just simplifies how I say it.

If you compare modern English to Old English, the modern version is far, far simpler. Do you reckon that you’re a user of pidgin English for that reason?
 

DJP

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Why would dumbing-down a language increase the incentive for people to use it? What's the logic here?

If a language is actually needed for use in real-life then must it must allow the user to express the range of meanings in real-life. For example, by being accurate with tenses. Otherwise you just get a 'Cúpla Focal' or pidgin language.

Who would spend twelve years learning Spanish in order to speak pidgin Spanish?
You're making a crass mistake in equating "simple & user friendly languages" with "pidgin languages".

A friend of mine lived in Germany years ago for a while and never learned German in school. He still speaks and writes German to his friends he met over there- he only knows the present and past tenses in any strong way in the language but that does not stop him communicating with his friends in the language. I'm similar- well I know the future tense in Irish as well as the present and past tenses but I don't know a lot perhaps most of the rules of the language by verse- I just learn the language through practice and I can communicate in the language bar with some people in the Gaeltacht. I also never lived for a long time in the Gaeltacht and although I went to the summer colleges every Summer in the Gaeltacht as a teenager never went to one in which proper immersion in the language actually happened in general.
 

Cai

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You're making a crass mistake in equating "simple & user friendly languages" with "pidgin languages".

A friend of mine lived in Germany years ago for a while and never learned German in school. He still speaks and writes German to his friends he met over there- he only knows the present and past tenses in any strong way in the language but that does not stop him communicating with his friends in the language. I'm similar- well I know the future tense in Irish as well as the present and past tenses but I don't know a lot perhaps most of the rules of the language by verse- I just learn the language through practice and I can communicate in the language bar with some people in the Gaeltacht. I also never lived for a long time in the Gaeltacht and although I went to the summer colleges every Summer in the Gaeltacht as a teenager never went to one in which proper immersion in the language actually happened in general.
Yup, There are four periphrastic tenses in colloquial Welsh present, imperfect, future, and conditional. You only use the two in English - but it’s perfectly possible to express the meanings in English - in a simpler but longer form. English isn’t some sort of pidgin language for simpletons.
 
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DJP

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I'd also like to see local Irish-language radio stations in other parts of the country - say Cork, Thomond, the SE, the Midlands etc.
That it not realistically going to happen. Maybe in 50 years or more. There are not enough Irish speakers in those regions. A weekly Irish language radio programme for each of those areas or regions (along with current RnaG programmes) would be a good start and development.

Given the population of Dublin I don't think it would be a good idea to have three Irish language radio stations competing for listeners.
 

Fun with Irish

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If I say that in Welsh ‘In Garndolbenmaen’ I’d say ‘yng Ngarndolbenmaen’. My children wouldn't mutate the G to Ng. There’s no dumbing down there - it’s just simplifying the pronunciation of the word. My parents would say ‘gwerthadant’ for ‘They would sell’. I’d tend to use the longer but simpler ‘Byddant yn gwerthu’. Again it doesn’t simplify what’s said, it just simplifies how I say it.

If you compare modern English to Old English, the modern version is far, far simpler. Do you reckon that you’re a user of pidgin English for that reason?
Could you add examples to cover Irish, say of the Leaving Cert Ordinary level?
 


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