Irish Liberal Party

Brehon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
458
Website
www.irishliberalparty.org
I'm attempting to start a new libertarian party. The basic premise of the party is a small government with as little intervention into the lives of people and business as possible. It's about giving more freedom back to us the people and away from centralized cabinet power. It's therefore about political and civil reform to ensure bureaucrats don't run our lives for us.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Irish-Liberal-Party/129449597086327

Irish Liberal Party - Home
The policies are draft and will be changed, created or endorsed when the party is officially formed.

If you think this reflects your views, someone you might know or you think you could lead the party then sign up and discuss with me. PM welcome. I'll do my best to answer questions and Pm's but I am working and trying to fit this in a tight schedule.
 


Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,468
Please do not attempt to pass this movement off as a libertarian party. The foremost goal of a libertarian party is limiting the socialist state, your goals are not congruent with this.

Your page says:

The party stands for the principles of individual freedom, respect for human rights, the rule of law, equality of opportunity, free and fair elections and multiparty-democracy, social justice, tolerance, free market economy, free trade, environmental sustainability and a strong sense of international solidarity.Firstly you are going to need to expand on exactly what you mean here.

Does equality of opportunity mean introducing even more Nial Cowley like equality legislation or reducing the rubbish he has brought in already or is it some type of socialist lets all be equal thing.

Human Rights? a very general statement, if you mean Human rights as in the rights of the individual over the state good, if its the amnesty international version of controlling us all with crazy legislation and refugees from guantanamo bay who happen to be Al Quida bad.

I quote "* If we want society to live in harmony with the ecological environment, we cannot claim the right to abuse nature for our private, short-term interests." - this is best left to the green party, thankfully soon to be gone.

Social Justice - we already have too much rubbish mouthed about this by the Irish Left already

You throw in a quip about the free market economy and free trade but all your other policies seem to be no different to those of Labour.

What we need is a fiscally conservative libertarian party, not a new left wing Liberal party which will only be a watered down version of labour. Although if you do help to fragment the Irish left further well and good.
 

tenderloins1

Active member
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
211
Twitter
@electionlit
I'm attempting to start a new libertarian party. The basic premise of the party is a small government with as little intervention into the lives of people and business as possible. It's about giving more freedom back to us the people and away from centralized cabinet power. It's therefore about political and civil reform to ensure bureaucrats don't run our lives for us.

Irish Liberal Party | Facebook

Irish Liberal Party - Home
The policies are draft and will be changed, created or endorsed when the party is officially formed.

If you think this reflects your views, someone you might know or you think you could lead the party then sign up and discuss with me. PM welcome. I'll do my best to answer questions and Pm's but I am working and trying to fit this in a tight schedule.
When attempting to send you a PM, I get
Brehon has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages.
 

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,515
Another internet-based political 'party'. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Asparagus

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
4,823
I'd be reluctant to even think about joining a party where not one person is willing to put there name on the website...

I mean even FF do that.
Oh and we are too liberal already - bring back a bit of authority i say
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,468
Oh my god I just saw this on their website definatly not libertarian:

Some of the policies of the Irish Liberal Party are



Introduction of a Land Valuation Tax
Strong regulation in all professions and industries without exception

Property taxes and strong regulation are two of the things that Libertarians stand firmly against. I think you need to buy a dictionary.
 

Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,481
Liberal or Libertarian? (They're not the same).
Completely agree. In Ireland, the PD's are considered a "Neo-Liberal" party when in fact they doubled the size of the public sector and interfered with regulators left right and centre.
 

QuizMaster

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2004
Messages
3,193
Website
www.quizmatic.com
I agree. Seems too sane to be libertarian.
Libertarianism has come to mean the brand of right-wing I'm-alright-jack anarchism that some nutbars in the USA have adopted.
Liberalism is a very different thing.

Also, you need 300 signatures to form a political party. Real paper signatures, not internet jobbies.
 

Keith-M

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15,668
Website
www.allkindsofeverything.ie
Oh my god I just saw this on their website definatly not libertarian:

Some of the policies of the Irish Liberal Party are



Introduction of a Land Valuation Tax
Strong regulation in all professions and industries without exception

Property taxes and strong regulation are two of the things that Libertarians stand firmly against. I think you need to buy a dictionary.
Totally against libertarian philosophy.
 

Brehon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
458
Website
www.irishliberalparty.org
Land value tax is to replace income tax or allow income tax and VAT to be reduced, thus creating stimulus in the productive and consumer parts of the economy. Local services need to be paid for and this would i.m.o be better done through this method then central taxation but that's just me.
Strong regulation is different to wide regulation, sure it's not purist but some regulation in all industries, sectors is practically required. You have to set the rules of the game. This is not against libertarian principles.
Environmental protection has a price. You can't walk away from anyone abusing the environment without them paying that price back to society. What's your alternative in libertarian principles.
Human rights - well child trafficing is wrong lets face it. We are signed up the the European convention on human rights. I think it would be policy to ensure those principles are maintained as much as possible.
yes its an internet party at the moment but a few of us have met up. I said I am trying to start a party with no money etc. If you feel that you can contribute to a better society by pontificating on forums for the rest of your life, then I'm happy for you. In my limited opinion it is people coming together with a vision that usually accomplishes objectives, not standing on the sidelines and throwing dispersions. I challenge anyone here that isn't doing anything to think about how not doing anything is contributing to the continuing malise and existence of a corrupt, over-blown government and system that has bankrupted our country and practically sold our sovereignty down the drain.

so pick as many holes as you like. I'm one person trying to make a difference. I'm no expert on libertarianism but I know its what I believe in more so than a left wing party that wants to dictate how I live my life, aka all current parties. If you want to create libertarian policies then join us in this party (name change is totally possible) and put your stamp on it.

I think the party will be closer to centrist libertarian policies than completely off the wall stuff. I'm a practical person but the party decides policy not me. I don't believe you can have a purely libertarian party but that will be a guiding principle.
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,468
Land value tax is to replace income tax or allow income tax and VAT to be reduced, thus creating stimulus in the productive and consumer parts of the economy. Local services need to be paid for and this would i.m.o be better done through this method then central taxation but that's just me.
Strong regulation is different to wide regulation, sure it's not purist but some regulation in all industries, sectors is practically required. You have to set the rules of the game. This is not against libertarian principles.
Environmental protection has a price. You can't walk away from anyone abusing the environment without them paying that price back to society. What's your alternative in libertarian principles.
Human rights - well child trafficing is wrong lets face it. We are signed up the the European convention on human rights. I think it would be policy to ensure those principles are maintained as much as possible.
yes its an internet party at the moment but a few of us have met up. I said I am trying to start a party with no money etc. If you feel that you can contribute to a better society by pontificating on forums for the rest of your life, then I'm happy for you. In my limited opinion it is people coming together with a vision that usually accomplishes objectives, not standing on the sidelines and throwing dispersions. I challenge anyone here that isn't doing anything to think about how not doing anything is contributing to the continuing malise and existence of a corrupt, over-blown government and system that has bankrupted our country and practically sold our sovereignty down the drain.

so pick as many holes as you like. I'm one person trying to make a difference. I'm no expert on libertarianism but I know its what I believe in more so than a left wing party that wants to dictate how I live my life, aka all current parties. If you want to create libertarian policies then join us in this party (name change is totally possible) and put your stamp on it.

I think the party will be closer to centrist libertarian policies than completely off the wall stuff. I'm a practical person but the party decides policy not me. I don't believe you can have a purely libertarian party but that will be a guiding principle.
Firstly to be honest with you as a land owner myself; you have just alienated every land owner in Ireland with that proposal. Also most of the land in Ireland is used in the productive economy, its called farming! To add to this while wealth may be tied up in land the owners may not be cash rich, do then have to sell land that may have been in families for generations and is considered party of the family home in order to pay these taxes?


Secondly I have no beef with you trying to start a political party, a lot of hard work, but fair play to you for trying. However do not put land taxes, increased regulation, and Libertarian in the same sentence.
Regulation by government and constant intervention in free markets, industry and professions is a job killer and a cost to production.
Limiting government regulation in all sectors of life including laws and taxation is the basic philosophy of Libertarianism, not to be confused with liberalism, which is a socialist philosophy.
Increased government regulation never achieves its "high ideals" and only leads to an increased cost of doing business.
 

Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,481
Land value tax is to replace income tax or allow income tax and VAT to be reduced, thus creating stimulus in the productive and consumer parts of the economy. Local services need to be paid for and this would i.m.o be better done through this method then central taxation but that's just me.
Strong regulation is different to wide regulation, sure it's not purist but some regulation in all industries, sectors is practically required. You have to set the rules of the game. This is not against libertarian principles.
Environmental protection has a price. You can't walk away from anyone abusing the environment without them paying that price back to society. What's your alternative in libertarian principles.
Human rights - well child trafficing is wrong lets face it. We are signed up the the European convention on human rights. I think it would be policy to ensure those principles are maintained as much as possible.
yes its an internet party at the moment but a few of us have met up. I said I am trying to start a party with no money etc. If you feel that you can contribute to a better society by pontificating on forums for the rest of your life, then I'm happy for you. In my limited opinion it is people coming together with a vision that usually accomplishes objectives, not standing on the sidelines and throwing dispersions. I challenge anyone here that isn't doing anything to think about how not doing anything is contributing to the continuing malise and existence of a corrupt, over-blown government and system that has bankrupted our country and practically sold our sovereignty down the drain.

so pick as many holes as you like. I'm one person trying to make a difference. I'm no expert on libertarianism but I know its what I believe in more so than a left wing party that wants to dictate how I live my life, aka all current parties. If you want to create libertarian policies then join us in this party (name change is totally possible) and put your stamp on it.

I think the party will be closer to centrist libertarian policies than completely off the wall stuff. I'm a practical person but the party decides policy not me. I don't believe you can have a purely libertarian party but that will be a guiding principle.
I applaud your efforts to get a new party going, and I truly wish you well. My point was that you just need to get your liberal-libertarian terms right, so as to make sure you appeal to the right voters.
 

Brehon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
458
Website
www.irishliberalparty.org
Firstly to be honest with you as a land owner myself; you have just alienated every land owner in Ireland with that proposal. Also most of the land in Ireland is used in the productive economy, its called farming! To add to this while wealth may be tied up in land the owners may not be cash rich, do then have to sell land that may have been in families for generations and is considered party of the family home in order to pay these taxes?


Secondly I have no beef with you trying to start a political party, a lot of hard work, but fair play to you for trying. However do not put land taxes, increased regulation, and Libertarian in the same sentence.
Regulation by government and constant intervention in free markets, industry and professions is a job killer and a cost to production.
Limiting government regulation in all sectors of life including laws and taxation is the basic philosophy of Libertarianism, not to be confused with liberalism, which is a socialist philosophy.
Increased government regulation never achieves its "high ideals" and only leads to an increased cost of doing business.
ok thanks, my understanding is that libertarianism is based on classic liberalism which is opposed to socialism. Liberal is definitely a confusing term for people and I'd look to change the name for that reason. Seems to be okay to use it in Europe without misinterpretation but not here. I agree with your points at the end.
LVT is a zoned system and farming land wouldn't be taxed using an LVT unless the owner opted in for the system. It wouldn't be a case of coercing farmers into the system. The devil is in the detail in a policy like this. I might take it down as it's causing alot of confusion.
I wouldn't increase regulation, I'd reduce bureaucracy but ensure that what's there is policed properly.
I'd de-regulate as many markets as possible to ensure more competition. I'd like to see government semi-states disappear, apart from keeping some national networks for security reasons e.g. eirgrid, gas network. Providers into those and similar industries would be private companies.
I know some of those ideas on the website aren't perfect but that's why I opened saying they were draft policies. They need more work by more people inputting into them.
Btw LVt is used in hong Kong and Singapore, two of the most productive free economies on the planet. There is a strong argument for it, especially in cities.
 

Goodbody

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
1,481
ok thanks, my understanding is that libertarianism is based on classic liberalism which is opposed to socialism. Liberal is definitely a confusing term for people and I'd look to change the name for that reason. Seems to be okay to use it in Europe without misinterpretation but not here. I agree with your points at the end.
LVT is a zoned system and farming land wouldn't be taxed using an LVT unless the owner opted in for the system. It wouldn't be a case of coercing farmers into the system. The devil is in the detail in a policy like this. I might take it down as it's causing alot of confusion.
I wouldn't increase regulation, I'd reduce bureaucracy but ensure that what's there is policed properly.
I'd de-regulate as many markets as possible to ensure more competition. I'd like to see government semi-states disappear, apart from keeping some national networks for security reasons e.g. eirgrid, gas network. Providers into those and similar industries would be private companies.
I know some of those ideas on the website aren't perfect but that's why I opened saying they were draft policies. They need more work by more people inputting into them.
Btw LVt is used in hong Kong and Singapore, two of the most productive free economies on the planet. There is a strong argument for it, especially in cities.
What we have in Ireland is Faux-Regulation, which is much worse than No Regulation. We pretend to regulate, but in reality it is all a corrupt con. If one knows there is no regulation, one can be prepared for that (only invest in well capitalized banks etc). Pretend-Regulation destroys so many people and their money.
 

Raketemensch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
3,075
What we have in Ireland is Faux-Regulation, which is much worse than No Regulation. We pretend to regulate, but in reality it is all a corrupt con. If one knows there is no regulation, one can be prepared for that (only invest in well capitalized banks etc). Pretend-Regulation destroys so many people and their money.
+10
 

Tim Johnston

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Messages
5,075
ok thanks, my understanding is that libertarianism is based on classic liberalism which is opposed to socialism. Liberal is definitely a confusing term for people and I'd look to change the name for that reason. Seems to be okay to use it in Europe without misinterpretation but not here. I agree with your points at the end.
LVT is a zoned system and farming land wouldn't be taxed using an LVT unless the owner opted in for the system. It wouldn't be a case of coercing farmers into the system. The devil is in the detail in a policy like this. I might take it down as it's causing alot of confusion.
I wouldn't increase regulation, I'd reduce bureaucracy but ensure that what's there is policed properly.
I'd de-regulate as many markets as possible to ensure more competition. I'd like to see government semi-states disappear, apart from keeping some national networks for security reasons e.g. eirgrid, gas network. Providers into those and similar industries would be private companies.
I know some of those ideas on the website aren't perfect but that's why I opened saying they were draft policies. They need more work by more people inputting into them.
Btw LVt is used in hong Kong and Singapore, two of the most productive free economies on the planet. There is a strong argument for it, especially in cities.
Firstly, I applaud your efforts to get something like this going, the Liberal Party idea has always been in the back of my own head. Campaigning on a libertarian platform is always going to attract people who don't really know what libertarianism is (you'll get a lot of anarchistic left-libertarians) and I think your mention of Classical Liberalism puts you in the right framework.

Where I disagree with Tea Party Patriot - and I do respect his/her views enormously - is that there is no reason to be dogmatic about the policy ideas. Calling for environmental sustainability is perfectly acceptable - why let the Greens define what "sustainability" means? It's the same with equality - with more capitalism and opportunity, and less socialism-for-the-rich, there will be more equality, and we libertarians have to believe that. Classical Liberalism was and is a radical philosophy which has fairness and equality (before the law) built in.

Classical Liberalism or libertarianism has to believe in strong central core values of government, not a lack of government. Those values have to be limited to maintaining law and order; application of the law, maintenance of contracts and protecting citizens.
 


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