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Irish Political "Dynasties"

Phinaeus

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Mar 8, 2009
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200
This nepotism is so widespread that it's now almost considered an intrinsic part of Irish culture. However, it's clearly a big part of our problem. And all established political parties (particularly Labour) are involved in it. How do we put an end to this form of corruption?
 


bn

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Joined
May 2, 2007
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15
This nepotism is so widespread that it's now almost considered an intrinsic part of Irish culture. However, it's clearly a big part of our problem. And all established political parties (particularly Labour) are involved in it. How do we put an end to this form of corruption?
Why or how is it corruption? If the person does a good job then why not? Simon Coveney took over from his late father Hugh and is doing a fantastic job and he was democratically elected in a bye-election, I don't see the corruption there?
 

Lloyd-Apjohn

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Oct 13, 2007
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Why is it anymore surprising that a person growing up in a political household would enter politics when we think it's perfectly fine for a sportsperson or musician to pass that interest onto their children?

It's not nepotism that's the problem it's corrupt individuals who are protected by a system which was never set up for the purposes of holding the likes of Beverly Flynn to account because it never crossed their mind that such people would be in politics.

End all expenses and allowances for TDs and end the pension gravy train and then let the staff in their offices be appointed through a HR department and then publish yearly audited accounts of the cost of each TD and Senator plus all their fund raising to the penny - who from and what they spent.

Also the bottom line is that despite how corrupt most FF politicians are there is still not even a hint that our elections are not free and fair so the reason so many gombeens are elected rests 100% with the people who keep voting for these people. If you really have to vote FF in Mayo, or anywhere else, then why not vote for the person standing for the first time instead of the gombeen crook.
 

getjpi

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Jan 31, 2009
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1
This nepotism is so widespread that it's now almost considered an intrinsic part of Irish culture. However, it's clearly a big part of our problem. And all established political parties (particularly Labour) are involved in it. How do we put an end to this form of corruption?

Pick at least two, preferably three of the following.........


Term limits : 2 terms are more than enough.

Failed politicians are precluded from holding any public funded office for at least 2 terms following defeat. That includes appointments to the Seanad, semi state sinecures, quangos and most important of all,k standing for a shoo-in seat elsewhere. No parachute for you a mhic. Find a job in the real world, learn how the general population lives.


Open Primaries for candidate selection: If all taxpayers are paying for your political party, then all taxpayers have the right to decide who is put in front of them for election.

or

Constitutional Ban on relatives standing in the same or surrounding constituencies for at least two terms following retirement or death of the incumbent.

"None of the above" : On the ballot paper with the same price for failure (above) if 'none of the above' tops the ballot.


Politics is *not* a valid career choice and should be actively discouraged.
 

TradCat

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Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,989
It is not corruption in that they candidates are duly selected and elected but it is bad for politics. The inheriting of seats and the widespread nominating of siblings to council seats is turning politics into a family business sat local level.

it's something we should bear in mind when voting.
 

Verhofstadt

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Jun 7, 2007
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If you don't like nepotism .. use your vote appropriately.

Democracy is messy and getting the vote out normally plays to the lowest common denominator. Just look at the amount of corrupt politicians that continue to be re-elected (Lowry etc)

As previously mentions restricted terms of office and other limitations would help.

But sure it can't be all bad, without nepotism we won't have great politicos like Sean Haughey, Michael Healy-Rae and .. I'll stop now.
 

KingKane

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Aug 19, 2003
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kingkane
This sort of nepotism happens because people have come to believe that politics and exercising political power is some sort of arcane art and that you have to be raised in it in order to get anything done. It's not.
 

ellie08

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Nov 2, 2008
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Dynasty.... but without the hairspray, shoulder pads, and good looks.
 

juanpablo

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Sep 30, 2004
Messages
265
Why or how is it corruption? If the person does a good job then why not? Simon Coveney took over from his late father Hugh and is doing a fantastic job and he was democratically elected in a bye-election, I don't see the corruption there?

Its corruption because when the main reason someone is elected/nominated its because of their surname and who their daddy was. FG in Cork South Central are a classic example of this nepotism in play with messrs Coveney & Clune. Politics and a career in it shoudn't be a family business, however in Ireland Dail seats are seen as almost a birthright to be passed on to junior along with the family business and numerous properties.
 
G

Gimpanzee

Its corruption because when the main reason someone is elected/nominated its because of their surname and who their daddy was. FG in Cork South Central are a classic example of this nepotism in play with messrs Coveney & Clune. Politics and a career in it shoudn't be a family business, however in Ireland Dail seats are seen as almost a birthright to be passed on to junior along with the family business and numerous properties.
There is absolutely nothing corrupt about someone getting more votes than someone else because he's someones son. It is the idiots that vote for the son because of who he is that are at fault - politicians can hardly be faulted for that. It is yet another example about how 'so-fisticated' the Irish electorate are (i.e. if you know that someone is related to someone else, or know who your father supported, then you are considered well versed in political matters and you show it by voting appropriately in the ballot booth).
 

juanpablo

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Sep 30, 2004
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265
We differ then on what is political corruption. So how about this, as it applies to the 3 main parties; candidate x is seeking a nomination and is a party member, no family connections to the party. candidate y is also seeking a nomination, family has long established connections to the party and political office. Come nomination time who wins? more often then not its y.

Blaming the voter is all well and good, but its the parties and their membership & nomination structures which are the problems. Politicians and their families see the seat they are elected to as a birthright. Just look through the ranks of larger parties, the same names cropping up again and again, people who have been reared in the political tradition. Is it any wonder people find Cowen & Kenny uninspiring when they've never had to prove their political worth at grassroots level?.
 

Kev408

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Feb 26, 2006
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5,025
This nepotism is so widespread that it's now almost considered an intrinsic part of Irish culture. However, it's clearly a big part of our problem. And all established political parties (particularly Labour) are involved in it. How do we put an end to this form of corruption?
Perhaps you'll give us some examples of nepotism in Irish politics. Definition of nepotism: favoritism shown to relatives or close friends by those in power (as by giving them jobs). Nepotism does not require a person becoming a politician just like Mammy or Daddy. It requires favouritism given to family members and friends by those in power.

I do not like the existence of 'dynasties' in Irish politics but because they exist does not necessarily mean nepotism does.

Another thread based on hyperbolic, sweeping statements from Phinaeus. But hey, never let the truth get in the way of an exaggerration, eh?
 

Phinaeus

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Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
200
I reckon at least 50% of the individuals on the following list (including our Taoiseach) are members of what can loosely be called political dynasties. And, okay, while it may not constitute outright corruption, it sure as hell ain't healthy for our democracy. It certainly does amount to nepotism: Daddy or Uncle retires but pulls out all the stops to see that Junior lands their plum job with all its perks.

Members Database 1919 - 2005 - Houses of the Oireachtas - Tithe an Oireachtais
 

Kev408

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Feb 26, 2006
Messages
5,025
I reckon at least 50% of the individuals on the following list (including our Taoiseach) are members of what can loosely be called political dynasties. And, okay, while it may not constitute outright corruption, it sure as hell ain't healthy for our democracy. It certainly does amount to nepotism: Daddy or Uncle retires but pulls out all the stops to see that Junior lands their plum job with all its perks.

Members Database 1919 - 2005 - Houses of the Oireachtas - Tithe an Oireachtais
It is not nepotism. If you can make such a definitive statement give us examples. Name the people who were victimised. Show us where favouritism was used by an Irish politician to negatively influence the chances of A.N.Other against one of the politician's family members. You can't.

This is just like the thread you started abuse sexual abuse and the church where you stated: 'Talk to any group of Irish seminarians and you'll quickly see that a majority are homosexual (I don't have a problem with that) and a significant minority are seriously sexually deviant.'

Completely fabricated bullshyt. People are bemoaning the situation where unsubstantiated nonsense is helping to diminish the credibilty of P.ie. You, sir, are a prime example. The truth seems not to matter you one whit.
 

juanpablo

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Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Messages
265
It is not nepotism. If you can make such a definitive statement give us examples. Name the people who were victimised. Show us where favouritism was used by an Irish politician to negatively influence the chances of A.N.Other against one of the politician's family members. You can't.

You must be joking right? its a well known practice whereby selection/nomination conventions are full of paper party members, often family, who turn out to select for x. Is this topic a little too close to the bone for you Kev? any family members involved in Irish politics you'd like to tell us about?
 

goosebump

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,940
You must be joking right? its a well known practice whereby selection/nomination conventions are full of paper party members, often family, who turn out to select for x. Is this topic a little too close to the bone for you Kev? any family members involved in Irish politics you'd like to tell us about?
Winning a selection convention doesn't give you a seat in the Dail.

Another stupid thread. God forbid that we would ever blame voters for anything.
 

teachertime

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Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
131
Why or how is it corruption? If the person does a good job then why not? Simon Coveney took over from his late father Hugh and is doing a fantastic job and he was democratically elected in a bye-election, I don't see the corruption there?
You are right its not corruption...thats a different matter....its gombeenism....something the Irish are experts at. Not in itself a bad thing unless you have the stupid children assuming the job ...the equivalent of the son that went into the army in the old anglo Irish days.

Examples would be Sean Haughey... should have joined the army....

Dick Spring...Should never have gone near a rugby pitch

Simon Coveney....Should never have been allowed out of the house
 
G

Gimpanzee

We differ then on what is political corruption. So how about this, as it applies to the 3 main parties; candidate x is seeking a nomination and is a party member, no family connections to the party. candidate y is also seeking a nomination, family has long established connections to the party and political office. Come nomination time who wins? more often then not its y.

Blaming the voter is all well and good, but its the parties and their membership & nomination structures which are the problems. Politicians and their families see the seat they are elected to as a birthright. Just look through the ranks of larger parties, the same names cropping up again and again, people who have been reared in the political tradition. Is it any wonder people find Cowen & Kenny uninspiring when they've never had to prove their political worth at grassroots level?.
Parties select the candidates that have the best chance of getting votes from the voters, and a very large section of the electorate hasn't a clue about politics, so they are more likely to vote for a politician who's name sounds familiar because it makes them feel like they know what they are doing when marking their ballot paper. Most voters, in an ideal world, shouldn't be let near a ballot box.
 

Kev408

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Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
5,025
You must be joking right? its a well known practice whereby selection/nomination conventions are full of paper party members, often family, who turn out to select for x. Is this topic a little too close to the bone for you Kev? any family members involved in Irish politics you'd like to tell us about?
No. I am not a member of any political party and neither are any family members. I've got to go now but I'll say this much: several posters here simply do not understand the word 'nepotism'. You're one of them. Nepotism is not helping out family members regardless of how experienced one is at the job.
 

Kev408

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Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
5,025
Parties select the candidates that have the best chance of getting votes from the voters, and a very large section of the electorate hasn't a clue about politics, so they are more likely to vote for a politician who's name sounds familiar because it makes them feel like they know what they are doing when marking their ballot paper. Most voters, in an ideal world, shouldn't be let near a ballot box.
It's really that simple.
 


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