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Irish sovereign debt default would require sale of semistate and government foreign assets


patslatt

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See Argentina With a judgement from a New York court,an American fund holding Argentinian sovereign bonds in default got a court order to impound an Argentinian frigate visiting Ghana.

Should Ireland default as looks inevitable unless the electorate puts up with decades of economic stagnation and emigration,the semistates-especially NAMA-and the government should have a plan to immediately liquidate and repatriate all foreign assets. An interesting point is whether virtually nationalised banks would count as state assets subject to seizures?
 
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stopdoingstuff

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It would, unless they were intentionally encumbered by the government "borrowing" against them and making the loan contract specifically list them as collateral such that there was an enforcebale charge hanging over them. Like....if they borrowed from AIB for example.
 

momentimori

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It depends on the law Irish govt debt is based.

If it's Irish law the creditors can whistle as a law can be passed to cancel the debt. If its under English law, common for many countries govt debt, it is up to arbitration and possible a court to decide what happens.
 

Boy M5

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No one is talking of defaulting on our actual sovereign debt.
 

neiphin

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See Argentina With a judgement from a New York court,an American fund holding Argentinian sovereign bonds in default got a court order to impound an Argentinian frigate visiting Ghana.

Should Ireland default as looks inevitable unless the electorate puts up with decades of economic stagnation and emigration,the semistates and the government should have a plan to immediately liquidate and repatriate all foreign assets. An interesting point is whether virtually nationalised banks would count as state assets subject to seizures?
OCD Ireland
every day, day after day, seek help
 

goosebump

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An interesting point is whether virtually nationalised banks would count as state assets subject to seizures?
Our banks are liabilities, not assets.

We couldn't give them away.
 

Clanrickard

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See Argentina With a judgement from a New York court,an American fund holding Argentinian sovereign bonds in default got a court order to impound an Argentinian frigate visiting Ghana.

Should Ireland default as looks inevitable unless the electorate puts up with decades of economic stagnation and emigration,the semistates and the government should have a plan to immediately liquidate and repatriate all foreign assets. An interesting point is whether virtually nationalised banks would count as state assets subject to seizures?
The Argentinians could play hardball.............
 

goosebump

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True, but think of those with deposits in Irish banks. People have been given enough warnings about keeping large amount of money in Irish banks. It realy isn't a good idea.
So you think deposits are assets?

What we need in this country is some form of banking crisis, that lasts maybe 4-5 years, and causes problems for every household in the State.

People might actually understand how banks work if that happened.
 

Trainwreck

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My first question would be WTF is the Government or semi-states doing owning foreign assets in the first place?
 

ibis

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So you think deposits are assets?

What we need in this country is some form of banking crisis, that lasts maybe 4-5 years, and causes problems for every household in the State.

People might actually understand how banks work if that happened.
And in the universe several universes away, that's what really happened...
 

DuineEile

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It has already been said on this thread, but it is worth re-iterating.

NO ONE IS TALKING OF RENAGING ON OUR ACTUAL SOVEREIGN DEBT.

We are talking about renaging on what was private bank debt. This is the postion Sinn Féin adopted prior to the last election, despite a lot of misdirection by FG, LAB and FF as to what Sinn Féin's position was.

It is looking like it (default on bank debt, or monies connected to the bank debt) will come to pass.


D
 

Trainwreck

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It has already been said on this thread, but it is worth re-iterating.

NO ONE IS TALKING OF RENAGING ON OUR ACTUAL SOVEREIGN DEBT.

We are talking about renaging on what was private bank debt. This is the postion Sinn Féin adopted prior to the last election, despite a lot of misdirection by FG, LAB and FF as to what Sinn Féin's position was.

It is looking like it (default on bank debt, or monies connected to the bank debt) will come to pass.


D
It is now sovereign debt. That is the point. Legally there is no distinction, it is impossible for us to default on debt used to recapitalise the banks but not on debt siml[py accured through general over spending by politicians.
 

henryhill

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It is now sovereign debt. That is the point. Legally there is no distinction, it is impossible for us to default on debt used to recapitalise the banks but not on debt siml[py accured through general over spending by politicians.
Soem of it has become sovereign debt. Some has not (including the promissory note.)
And even that which is now sovereign debt is odious debt which should not be repaid.
 

ibis

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Soem of it has become sovereign debt. Some has not (including the promissory note.)
And even that which is now sovereign debt is odious debt which should not be repaid.
It's all legally sovereign debt, which is what counts in a court of law. The promissory notes in particular are very much sovereign debt, because they are literally IOUs from the sovereign.
 

goosebump

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It's all legally sovereign debt, which is what counts in a court of law. The promissory notes in particular are very much sovereign debt, because they are literally IOUs from the sovereign.
True, but the payments are due to the banks, who in turn owe them to the Central Bank, all of which we own.

Its a bit different from regular Government bonds, where the lender is generally a 3rd party.
 

Thac0man

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See Argentina With a judgement from a New York court,an American fund holding Argentinian sovereign bonds in default got a court order to impound an Argentinian frigate visiting Ghana.

Should Ireland default as looks inevitable unless the electorate puts up with decades of economic stagnation and emigration,the semistates and the government should have a plan to immediately liquidate and repatriate all foreign assets. An interesting point is whether virtually nationalised banks would count as state assets subject to seizures?
What has happened to the Argentine frigate is illustrative of the fact that no country can give two fingers to those they have borrowed money off, and expect there to be no consequences in reply. This episode also suggests that blanket defaulters like Argentina may have difficulty in not only moving assests about abroad, but finding places where they can actually deposit what little money they have. Argentina probably has to look over its shoulder while doing the things we take for granted in international trade. To be honest the impression that some people gave they we in Ireland could unilaterally tear up agreements and reneg on debts, then dictate that that be the end of the issue, and there be no more about it; always seemed odd. That sort of isloationist approach is simply not possible unless we were planning on adopting a state of isolation the likes of Japan once had, and North Korea still has. If Argentina does ever manage to exploit it apparently huge natural gas reserves, the people they still owe money too will be back. They have as many rights under international trade law as Buenes Aires does.
 

Trainwreck

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Soem of it has become sovereign debt. Some has not (including the promissory note.)
And even that which is now sovereign debt is odious debt which should not be repaid.
There is a concept of pari passu that has to apply.
 
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