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Irish Times:Prominent politicians call for nationalisation of church-run schools


patslatt

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Carey says State must take control of church-run schools - The Irish Times - Mon, Jun 01, 2009 Government Chief Whip Pat Carey and Ruari Quinn,Labour Party spokesman on education are calling for nationalisation of denominational schools. They may have a receptive audience at present,given public revulsion towards the well documented disclosures of child abuse in the Ryan report. Catholic congregations cited in this report may come under pressure to transfer large numbers of schools to the state as a means of satisfying the government's demand to indemnify it for half the cost of compensating people abused in industrial schools and orphanages.

Advocates of secular education provision for an increasingly diverse society may welcome this. However,one good principle to follow in government is, "if it ain't broke,don't fix it!" The Catholic education system,structurally a private school system subsidised by the government which pays teachers' salaries, is certainly not broke. In fact,the Irish education system,largely Catholic, is ranked one of the best quality education systems internationally,according to the World Economic Forum's competitiveness rankings.

Transferring it to the government could undermine its high quality. Would the government that created the HSE,the bureaucratic monster that runs the health service, create a bureaucratic ESE, Education Service Executive? Or will it create expensive bureaucratic school board quangos like those in the USA and Canada that mainly serve to undermine the authority of schools managements?

There is a simple solution for creating secular schools out of Catholic schools. Simply remove the requirement to teach religion! Everything else can continue as before,more or less,except that the teachers no longer have to be Catholics and the school management can include non-Catholics.
 


corelli

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Jun 13, 2007
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4,478
Carey says State must take control of church-run schools - The Irish Times - Mon, Jun 01, 2009 Government Chief Whip Pat Carey and Ruari Quinn,Labour Party spokesman on education are calling for nationalisation of denominational schools. They may have a receptive audience at present,given public revulsion towards the well documented disclosures of child abuse in the Ryan report. Catholic congregations cited in this report may come under pressure to transfer large numbers of schools to the state as a means of satisfying the government's demand to indemnify it for half the cost of compensating people abused in industrial schools and orphanages.

Advocates of secular education provision for an increasingly diverse society may welcome this. However,one good principle to follow in government is, "if it ain't broke,don't fix it!" The Catholic education system,structurally a private school system subsidised by the government which pays teachers' salaries, is certainly not broke. In fact,the Irish education system,largely Catholic, is ranked one of the best quality education systems internationally,according to the World Economic Forum's competitiveness rankings.

Transferring it to the government could undermine its high quality. Would the government that created the HSE,the bureaucratic monster that runs the health service, create a bureaucratic ESE, Education Service Executive? Or will it create expensive bureaucratic school board quangos like those in the USA and Canada that mainly serve to undermine the authority of schools managements?

There is a simple solution for creating secular schools out of Catholic schools. Simply remove the requirement to teach religion! Everything else can continue as before,more or less,except that the teachers no longer have to be Catholics and the school management can include non-Catholics.
There is hardly a priest or religious left teaching in any school in the country, particularly primary schools. Additionally, they must follow a State curriculum, do State examinations, follow State disciplinary criteria, and otherwise are effectively totally Governed by the State, bar in matters of recruitment etc. Oh, and of course, the State pays the salaries.

How, exactly, would removing the religious affect that in any way or dilute the quality of education?
 

Keith-M

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About bloody time. I have been calling for this for years. We need to strike while the iron is hot, before the religeous try and create a smokescreen to cover their wrong doing.
 

blucey

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Will the ARYAN laity agree to their children sitting beside the children of JEWS or being taught by JEWS?

Will the ARYAN laity want their children taught in "diverse" schools?



No, NO, No - no JEWISH involvement in the education of ARYANS.

See how it looks now....
 
Joined
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Will the Catholic laity agree to their children sitting beside the children of non-Catholics or being taught by anti-Catholics?

No, NO, No - no anti-Catholic involvement in the education of Catholics.
I really do feel sorry for you.
 

Limerick Lad

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Most supposedly Catholic schools are Catholic in name only, 99% staffed by lay teachers whose salaries are paid by the State, most school buildings have been built or refurbished with State funds with the only contribution from the Church now being the fact that the land on which these schools are situated belonging to the Church.
 

County Cork

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May 23, 2009
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It IS broken, very broken.
Our results are not as good as you seem to think.
Take a look at OECD reports over the last decade or so.
Take a look at the level of illiteracy in Ireland, outlined in report after report.

Stop listening to indoctrination.
The religious abused our children, but they educated us!
So that's ok then? No it is not.
Look a bit closer at the education they gave us - taught us by beating the hell out of us!
What kind of teaching was that?
We're grateful because we were beaten in school?
What kind of people are we? We should NOT be grateful for that.

Another fallacy - the church no longer has power in Ireland.
The church runs every aspect of our primary schools.
They choose the teachers = they control the delivery of the curriculum.
They send in a religion inspector (now called a diocesan advisor) every year, to check up on the teaching of religion.
They make the teachers prepare children for the sacraments.
This takes about 4-5 months of 2nd class and 5th / 6th class.
If a teacher, pupil, parent has a complaint about a school, you have to complain to the bishop. I have complained to Cloyne. No action.
The church has retained the right to discriminate against teachers based on their sexual orientation - this is wrong, and no other sector is allowed to discriminate like this - and ironic given many priest's orientation! I am not gay, but I do not believe in discriminating against gay people, no matter what their job may be. It's a scandal.
The church is allowed to discriminate against possible pupils on the basis of their religion - this is wrong. Children have a right to a free education under the declaration of human rights: article 26. The church is above that? No.
The church control the schools = control the teachers = controls the children = controls the parents = controls the future = CONTROLS.

Would I allow my children to sit beside non-Catholics in school?
That's a sick question. Of course I would, why wouldn't I?
Non-Catholics don't have the plague!!!

I'm fed up of this attitude.
State and church should have nothing to do with each other.
It's 2009!!
 

lostexpectation

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carey wasn't that infactic on the show, he said it would happen slowly.

quinn asked batt o'keefe a few weeks ago in the dail how many schools the orders had. batt o'keefe said he didn't know.

they get notice of these question don't they, but they didn't know how many schools the orders had... theyre in no hurry.
 
Last edited:

asset test

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Well, if this is ever implemented, the Government will have to take responsibility for the actions of its teachers. The likes of the Louise O'Keeffe case will never happen again. That would certainly be a very good thing.

I cannot see it happening to be honest. Despite everything that has happened in the Catholic Church, a lot of parents are snobs. If there is a choice between a State run school and a church school, the church school wins. See the UK for that. Even if the Catholic schools are taken in to State hands, what is to stop a group of parents, a religious foundation etc. etc. from setting up their own Catholic schools? Isn't this what the Muslim, C of I and the Gaelscoileanna do? Supported by the Department.

Whatever about this idea being in redress for the atrocities committed in the past, I think it will take more than another generation for people to be agreeable to State run as opposed to Catholic ethos schools. I think it is in the blood. Born, baptize, communion, confirmation, wedding, funeral. Many parents who do not attend church still do the "hatches matches and despatches" thing through the church. The same will apply to schools I think.

Also, will all religions be forced to hand over to the State? I can see a big problem if the C of I and the Muslim schools etc. are expected to. AFAIK only Catholic religious were mentioned in the Ryan report.

If they are not, then Catholic schools will never be relinquished to the State.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Secular-education yes. State-ownership of the school buildings and employment of the staff - no. Most teachers are working in the public-sector in any case. That has to stop. It's costing the taxpayer a fortune.
 

YoungLiberal

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Fair play to Pat Carey, somebody I've great admiration for.

It's funny if a FG/LAB politician said this, posters on this site would be praising them to the high heavens while criticising FF, whereas Carey will get little if any kudos for this off them.
 

Cato

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Well, if this is ever implemented, the Government will have to take responsibility for the actions of its teachers. The likes of the Louise O'Keeffe case will never happen again. That would certainly be a very good thing.
I'm in total agreement with you on that point. The current system suits both the state and the patrons as they both can wriggle around on any questions of accountability.

I cannot see it happening to be honest. Despite everything that has happened in the Catholic Church, a lot of parents are snobs. If there is a choice between a State run school and a church school, the church school wins. See the UK for that. Even if the Catholic schools are taken in to State hands, what is to stop a group of parents, a religious foundation etc. etc. from setting up their own Catholic schools? Isn't this what the Muslim, C of I and the Gaelscoileanna do? Supported by the Department.
Withdraw all funding from non-state schools. If parents want to be snobs, let them do so out of their own pocket. The state should still control the curriculum and the teaching of religion should not form part of 'normal' school hours.

To avoid any type of elitist consequences children attending state schools should be given a points bonus.

Whatever about this idea being in redress for the atrocities committed in the past, I think it will take more than another generation for people to be agreeable to State run as opposed to Catholic ethos schools. I think it is in the blood. Born, baptize, communion, confirmation, wedding, funeral. Many parents who do not attend church still do the "hatches matches and despatches" thing through the church. The same will apply to schools I think.
All of those are private issues for families. Preparation of communion of confirmation would have to take place outside of school hours and outside of school property. In time the role of the church in Irish society would diminish.

Also, will all religions be forced to hand over to the State? I can see a big problem if the C of I and the Muslim schools etc. are expected to. AFAIK only Catholic religious were mentioned in the Ryan report.

If they are not, then Catholic schools will never be relinquished to the State.
Well the Catholic Church controls the vast majority of schools in the republic so taking control of them, either through transfer from the church to pay for the current crisis, or through the state zoning all (Catholic & non-Catholic) current school properties as for educational use only, so rendering them fairly worthless. The state could then CPO them.

The non-Catholic school sector should then simply be told either pay the full cost of running your schools or secularize them and hand them over to the state.

The full-secularization of the republic is a worthwhile aim and if any good could come out of the current crisis, this could be it. It is an opportunity to do the right thing.
 

wombat

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To avoid any type of elitist consequences children attending state schools should be given a points bonus.
.
While you're at it how about a points bonus where English is not your first language.
 

Glennshane

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About bloody time. I have been calling for this for years. We need to strike while the iron is hot, before the religeous try and create a smokescreen to cover their wrong doing.
Ah, we have a Prod trying to steal Catholic schools and get defenceless Catholic children into his clutches.
 

patslatt

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There is hardly a priest or religious left teaching in any school in the country, particularly primary schools. Additionally, they must follow a State curriculum, do State examinations, follow State disciplinary criteria, and otherwise are effectively totally Governed by the State, bar in matters of recruitment etc. Oh, and of course, the State pays the salaries.

How, exactly, would removing the religious affect that in any way or dilute the quality of education?
Transferring the ownership of schools to the government would lead to creation of government bureaucracies to run the schools. Educational bureaucracies are not successful in running schools.Internationally,the elected school boards in the USA have no real function, waste money that could go directly to schools and undermine the authority of school's own managements. The record of UK councils in running schools is also poor.
 

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